Lightning Strike Multistrike Bugfix Incoming

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realatomicpanda a écrit :

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Invalesco a écrit :

The thing is, the quick to nerf and slow to buff philosophy is best. Reason being that in being quick to nerf, the devs minimise the number of people being affected by it, and in taking their time to buff, they can come up with a well-balanced permanent buff which need not be nerfed again and which players can enjoy with a sense of security, instead of having to worry about it being nerfed again. CI is a fine example.

CI is a fine example of just how poorly this has worked out. The problem for CI since forever has been very high susceptibility to status effects and stun. And now, a while after the CI buff that basically involved giving more ES to a build that could already stack tons of ES, most CI players still regard the Eye of Chayula as absolutely mandatory.

People can argue all they want about what the skill was MEANT to affect and so on, but the fact is that LS+Multistrike in its current form isn't overpowered. It's merely decent. It's good enough to be efficient in the endgame. It's still worse than most of the cookie cutter exilepro builds, even in its current "broken" state.

Actually, I think CI is a good example of how "well" this has turned out rather than how poorly. CI has been slowly buffed ever since OB hit and might likely continue to get buffed. a nerf is not on the horizon for CI, which is good.

LS + multistrike in its current form isn't overpowered. That I agree. However, what it does is that it's stifling other melee variants and in so doing, restrict build variety and restrict the amount of productive feedback that can be obtained. Remember, just because LS + Multistrike gets nerfed does not mean melee skills + multistrike got nerfed. If anything, the chances of melee skills + multistrike getting buffed just got better now that more people will experiment with other options and discover for themselves if it's still good or if it really does suck. If it's the latter, they can always feedback on it and if the devs deem it appropriate they will buff it

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Invalesco a écrit :

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Mastodonic a écrit :

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f0xx a écrit :

That's not the point.

With this change, they show that when it comes to nerfing damage they treat the LS damage as conversion from melee physical damage, since it gets affected by the 40% less melee damage debuff.

When it comes to boosting though, they treat them separately and str nodes don't improve the damage of the projectiles?

This is a good point and exhibits double standards on GGGs part. The projectiles already suffer a 30% damage penalty for being projectiles. Now they want to apply a 40% further penalty to the projectiles as though they're a melee attack, but don't want to apply the str bonus of a melee attack inherently to the projectiles.

1. Because LS projectiles derive their damage from the melee hit, it only makes sense for the projectiles to always deal less damage than the melee hit.

2. I don't see your point about the double standards. If anything, I only see consistency being maintained between melee component and ranged component.

1. If it is as you say and LS does derive the projectile damage from the melee hit, then why don't str nodes improve the damage of the projectiles (along with the melee hit, of course)?

2. How is it consistent to consider that the damage of LS projectiles derives from the physical part of the melee hit and nerf it because of the "40% less melee damage" on the multistrike gem, but at the same time not boost it from the str nodes? After all, you just said that the projectile damage derives from the melee hit, and the melee hit is increased by str nodes.

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Invalesco a écrit :

Str is meant to affect melee physical damage not ranged physical damage.

Good point, but doesn't work when you are talking about converting different types of damage. After all, the "increased cold damage" passives are supposed to affect cold damage only, but when you have a "Cold to fire" support gem, the "increased cold damage" passives also work for the fire damage part that comes from cold damage.

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Invalesco a écrit :

Remember, LS projectiles are 50% physical and 50% lightning. You wouldn't get that much of a boost from Str/melee physical damage.

Indeed, but the 50% lightning damage is converted from physical melee damage, so why shouldn't it be affected by str passives?

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Invalesco a écrit :

Multistrike affects both the ranged component and melee component in exactly the same manner.

Does it? The description says it affects only melee damage and since str nodes don't increase the damage of the projectiles, this means GGG are treating the projectiles as attacks whose damage does not derive from the physical melee damage. Then why should they be affected by a supper gem that says "40% less Melee Damage"?

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Invalesco a écrit :

Str and melee physical damage not granting LS projectils incr. physical damage is irrelevant to this context.

Again, then why should the projectile damage be decreased by a support gem that decreases the melee damage?

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f0xx a écrit :

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Invalesco a écrit :

1. Because LS projectiles derive their damage from the melee hit, it only makes sense for the projectiles to always deal less damage than the melee hit.

2. I don't see your point about the double standards. If anything, I only see consistency being maintained between melee component and ranged component.

1. If it is as you say and LS does derive the projectile damage from the melee hit, then why don't str nodes improve the damage of the projectiles (along with the melee hit, of course)?

2. How is it consistent to consider that the damage of LS projectiles derives from the physical part of the melee hit and nerf it because of the "40% less melee damage" on the multistrike gem, but at the same time not boost it from the str nodes? After all, you just said that the projectile damage derives from the melee hit, and the melee hit is increased by str nodes.

1. Because the bonus from Str nodes are applied separately. Projectiles derive their damage from the melee hit that's true, but a more accurate term with regards to how the mechanics work would probably be "Projectiles derive their damage from weapon damage"

2. I mentioned earlier: Multistrike provides increased attack speed for a damage penalty and applies it both to the melee component and ranged componenent. That is only fair. Str not affecting projectile damage is completely separate. It is and always has been how LS worked since OB and even for a while pre-OB and has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with Multistrike. Let me ask you then, is it fair to give LS projectiles increased attack speed with no penalty? Also, if it makes you happier, the "40% less melee damage" on the multistrike gem will be changed so you no longer need feel a sense of inconsistency.

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Invalesco a écrit :

Str is meant to affect melee physical damage not ranged physical damage.

Good point, but doesn't work when you are talking about converting different types of damage. After all, the "increased cold damage" passives are supposed to affect cold damage only, but when you have a "Cold to fire" support gem, the "increased cold damage" passives also work for the fire damage part that comes from cold damage.

That is damage conversion. Fire damage was derived from cold damage hence it benefits from cold damage nodes. LS projectile damage are derived from weapon damage NOT melee physical damage.

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Invalesco a écrit :

Remember, LS projectiles are 50% physical and 50% lightning. You wouldn't get that much of a boost from Str/melee physical damage.

Indeed, but the 50% lightning damage is converted from physical melee damage, so why shouldn't it be affected by str passives?

It is not converted from physical melee damage. Weapon damage will probably be a more accurate term. The Str bonuses are applied separately. If it were so, considering how most people use shift + LS and no melee physical damage is dealt because you are just hitting empty air, would you rather the projectiles do no damage in that scenario?

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Invalesco a écrit :

Multistrike affects both the ranged component and melee component in exactly the same manner.

Does it? The description says it affects only melee damage and since str nodes don't increase the damage of the projectiles, this means GGG are treating the projectiles as attacks whose damage does not derive from the physical melee damage. Then why should they be affected by a supper gem that says "40% less Melee Damage"?

That description/wording will be changed.

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Invalesco a écrit :

Str and melee physical damage not granting LS projectils incr. physical damage is irrelevant to this context.

Again, then why should the projectile damage be decreased by a support gem that decreases the melee damage?

Again, that description/wording will be changed

@ f0xx

I clearly understand why u try to defend it atm, cuse it is quite sick to use atm and a lot of fun :p, but if u are unable to see why a MELEE suport gem should not be usable for a RANGED attack then u have to learn a bit more about the balance in this game.

Im not trying to offend u, but the fact that this RANGED skill gets a major buff from a MELEE suport gem is totaly ofputting for all other MELEE skills, and destroys build diversity. I believe melee needs major fixing, but not by buffing the 2 RANGED skills they have (LS + GS), it should be done by creating more fun MELEE skills, and giving some more short time buffs like molten shell etc.

Basicly ure giving Lightning arrow a major AS% buff with this gem. Since bows compared to 2H weapons for melee = 50% of the damage, the fact that the projectiles of LS do 50% of the damage puts them on par with LA, only difference is u can boost it with melee gems aswell.

And yet, u defend this?...Give me a cleave thats on par with LA, and some short term buff spells like molten shell so i can survive in melee range instead please...

Fact remains it was a mistake on GGG side, and everybody with some logic emediatly noticed this was a design fault and it would be nerfed. Like most of the LS+multistrike users i came across on fellshrine all said 'im enjoying it until nerf', and that is the right attitude.

What, you think that just because LA is stupidly OP that lightning strike has a right to be good?

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Invalesco a écrit :

If anything, the chances of melee skills + multistrike getting buffed just got better now that more people will experiment with other options and discover for themselves if it's still good or if it really does suck. If it's the latter, they can always feedback on it and if the devs deem it appropriate they will buff it

People have been giving feedback on it for a while. There hasn't been a lack of data, but if they wanted a general consensus on what skills and builds were good, all they'd have to do is join some public parties and see what people are building, or watch some streams.

What people have been saying up until now is that LS builds aren't very good. They're playable, but they've never been even remotely on par with the top tier builds. Multistrike provided the opportunity to change that. Nerfing it restores the status quo, i.e. LS goes back to being mediocre.

I mean, it should be easy to see why so many people were so eager to roll LS characters after MS came out. Because it actually works, now.

You could say I'm butthurt because my build is getting nerfed, and that'd be the truth. I'm a relatively new player who's come up with several failed builds and rerolled once I realized how bad they were. I'm fine with that; I like to learn things firsthand, and I think I've done pretty well at it. My current LS mararuder was supposed to be my main. I don't have any other main I can farm on. So with the nerf I'm faced with the choice of whether to roll another main, or stick with a character that's simply not very efficient in endgame content.

I could reroll, but a lot of my currency went into gearing up the LS marauder. It'd almost be like starting from scratch again.

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realatomicpanda a écrit :

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Invalesco a écrit :

If anything, the chances of melee skills + multistrike getting buffed just got better now that more people will experiment with other options and discover for themselves if it's still good or if it really does suck. If it's the latter, they can always feedback on it and if the devs deem it appropriate they will buff it

People have been giving feedback on it for a while. There hasn't been a lack of data, but if they wanted a general consensus on what skills and builds were good, all they'd have to do is join some public parties and see what people are building, or watch some streams.

What people have been saying up until now is that LS builds aren't very good. They're playable, but they've never been even remotely on par with the top tier builds. Multistrike provided the opportunity to change that. Nerfing it restores the status quo, i.e. LS goes back to being mediocre.

I mean, it should be easy to see why so many people were so eager to roll LS characters after MS came out. Because it actually works, now.

You could say I'm butthurt because my build is getting nerfed, and that'd be the truth. I'm a relatively new player who's come up with several failed builds and rerolled once I realized how bad they were. I'm fine with that; I like to learn things firsthand, and I think I've done pretty well at it. My current LS mararuder was supposed to be my main. I don't have any other main I can farm on. So with the nerf I'm faced with the choice of whether to roll another main, or stick with a character that's simply not very efficient in endgame content.

I could reroll, but a lot of my currency went into gearing up the LS marauder. It'd almost be like starting from scratch again.

I imagine they've been doing just that! They have been listening to feedback and I imagine they will buff it accordingly if they deem it appropriate. One such example is what Chris and Mark posted recently regarding physical damage.

Just keep trucking on mate, and keep your gear for another character instead so you don't lose that much :)

LS is actually a pretty good skill, even before multistrike and even back in closed beta before it got buffed.

It all depends on how you build your LS character. LS scales best with a high physical damage crit build.

Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHGLWhMunM

That was back in closed beta before multistrike came out and back when LS was still at 100% damage effectiveness.

Right now, LS is at 120% damage effectiveness. LS builds have actually gotten more powerful in OB. Multistrike is irrelevant. If you're using LS as a ranged AoE like how I was, it is still extremely powerful without MS. If you're not and are using LS as a melee, it is still one of the most powerful single target DPS skills (probably only behind heavy strike, double/dual strike) and will still benefit tremendously from multistrike in it's new form.

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Invalesco a écrit :

If you're using LS as a ranged AoE like how I was, it is still extremely powerful without MS. If you're not and are using LS as a melee, it is still one of the most powerful single target DPS skills (probably only behind heavy strike, double/dual strike) and will still benefit tremendously from multistrike in it's new form.

Define "extremely powerful". Now I'm in Act 3 cruel and it takes 4-6 shots to kill a single white mob, with multistrike

Not sure how are you using it as ranged, you can't target anything. Maybe you hit something, maybe not

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dima_dunedin a écrit :

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Invalesco a écrit :

If you're using LS as a ranged AoE like how I was, it is still extremely powerful without MS. If you're not and are using LS as a melee, it is still one of the most powerful single target DPS skills (probably only behind heavy strike, double/dual strike) and will still benefit tremendously from multistrike in it's new form.

Define "extremely powerful". Now I'm in Act 3 cruel and it takes 4-6 shots to kill a single white mob, with multistrike

Not sure how are you using it as ranged, you can't target anything. Maybe you hit something, maybe not

Just because you're taking 4-6 shots to kill a white mob with a skill does not mean that the skill is awful. It just means that your gear is

*of topic*

Btw invalesco diamond flask's are no more <.o (ure url build i just watched it :o) )

Also, that just works because its u dude, look at those items xDDD...a newbie couldent attempt to do this even if he tried real hard, CI is really an elitist keystone, u just need certain unique's for it to function (specialy melee style O.o)