Devs don't read this and it's your fault

A lot of people on these forums show that they've never worked in any sort of business with scale or departments. They act like the customer support team is directly responsible for going to the devs and telling them to change the code because people aren't happy.

I work in a field where I hear these types people all day long, and the truth is, most of them think they are better than the people who have years of experience actually doing this job and they are incapable of seeing a big picture because it's not what affects "them."

The squeaky wheel gets the grease and we've been taught for 20 years or more that "the customer is always right" when in reality they don't realize that the saying is not literal.

But good people exist too and we need to focus on lifting those voices up.

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DarKWolF90#6544 a écrit :

Or people saying XP penalty is too much and don't even know what an Omen of Amelioration is (or worse, thinking it's something u buy from the store for real money when u bring it to the table, true story)

If player could target farm omens of amelioration, sure. However, I'm about to throw up every time having to interact with the trade site again, and pretty sure I'm not alone in this:)

Omen is not a solution, because problem never was in exp penalty itself, problem is both poe1 and poe2 were never equipped to support such penalties, poe2 being extremely bugged RNG mess and poe1 being polished RNG mess.

Look at the patchnotes here in poe2, how many deaths did those bugs cause, especially inconsistent monster stats?

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Philvil#9636 a écrit :

I don't know man, while I agree it's a good idea in theory, that could turn this place into reddit 2.0. There is something I really hate in reddit and that's people making legit questions about the game, asking for help, and getting downvoted to hell. Only things that get upvoted there are hivemind opinions like stupid things everyone would agree, ie: this game needs more gems/classes, or memes.

What I mean is, not every post with 0 upvotes in reddit is useless, the same could happen here and hide good posts even from the dev team and make them judge the post irrelevant without reading it, they are human beings after all, and human beings judge things.

The "+/-" vote system is worse than not having one in the first place.

The "bubble" or "cult" or "biased" or "hivemind" mentality would kick in real hard and is a major problem on sides like Reddit.

"Non-valid criticism" could be pushed up when enough "haters" align with it and vice versa "valid criticism" could be pushed down when enough "haters" disprove it.
In a forum without these up/down votes ppl at least need to back up their "position".

For example, on Reddit I could say "Map sustain is horrible" and ppl could just downvote my statement without proving anything, it's just gone to the bottom.
Here I have to form an actual argument saying "No because of this and that" - having a conversation.

On the issue upvoting system, I would be surprised if they didn't run a buzzword cloud or something like that in the background showing them what people talk about the most. Likely we don't need upvotes because of that, just talk about issues enough but of course I don't know if they do that; their patches have demonstrated they listened so there must be a way for them to get the info of what to prioritise from somewhere.

On the issue of exp and 'not dying' I think it's all a little silly. It's like saying that everything you have in life you owe it to only hard work. No privilege, no luck, nothing, just work hard and you'll get there. Similar here, we're assuming all deaths are preventable by improving builds and 'gettin gud' and that is simply, demonstrably and obviously false. Cheap shots, visual clutter, bugs, boomer reflexes, server/FPS slow-downs, mistiming a roll are just some examples. We're humans, can we not be punished too hard for being humans and also stop assuming that everything in the game is so perfectly coded that it all comes down to player skill and nothing else. And experiencing any of those things that gets you killed in the HOURS it takes to level up is very, very easy, almost guaranteed. Some people still succeed because they either invest in crazy offence to one-shot everything and/or ranged strategies, which has the effect on the game that only a couple of ways to play guarantees success. They become part of an elite club and they want to gate-keep others from entering it by telling them: you are wrong for mistiming one dodge roll, you are wrong to play close-quarter builds etc. dressed in 'get gud' comments or some such.

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JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

"

I personally don't believe in taking things away in a game, which is supposed to be fun. Not getting anything is enough of a punishment imo. In football, if you lose a match, you get zero points, but you don't get the points subtracted that you earned last week.

Making a mistake in a football match is the "EXP-loss" and if you make enough mistakes you won't win the match (won't level up).

Can you lose so hard that you lose your prior match? Nope.
Can you lose so hard that you lose a prior level? Nope.

This is actually clever, you have a point there. But thinking further I get to the aspect of scope. During the 90 minutes of a match everything is on the line, you can blow a multi-goal lead. The scope is 90 minutes or "today". You don't lose hours or even days of progress - that should be hardcore-only.

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

It's not a design flaw, it's working as intended.
The real issue is that some ppl have the mindset "Nah, I don't do content X because I could lose my exp progress" instead of improving their build so they don't need to think of a possible "EXP-loss" in the first place.

I said "to me", so I have my opinion and you can have yours, but that doesn't make it objective by any means, it just happens to also be GGGs current opinion.

I don't know how far you have progressed in PoE2, but judging by those 40 challenges I guess you know what you're doing in PoE.

Are you familiar with the situation in which your build is "correct" but your items are lacking? You cannot just change that with a snap of your fingers - maybe if they were holding a credit card.

What you're suggesting is getting expensive gear so you don't die to a misplay or even a few misplays in a row.

If you only enter a boss room when you can't lose, that's cowardly gameplay. But exactly that is promoted by the xp loss and your suggestions. Trying and learning a fight is disincentivized when your build might lack 10k EHP. 10k EHP that aren't in the passive tree, but that you could "simply" buy for 200 div if you didn't suck at the game. That's where your ignorance shows.

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

The "+/-" vote system is worse than not having one in the first place.

The "bubble" or "cult" or "biased" or "hivemind" mentality would kick in real hard and is a major problem on sides like Reddit.

"Non-valid criticism" could be pushed up when enough "haters" align with it and vice versa "valid criticism" could be pushed down when enough "haters" disprove it.
In a forum without these up/down votes ppl at least need to back up their "position".

For example, on Reddit I could say "Map sustain is horrible" and ppl could just downvote my statement without proving anything, it's just gone to the bottom.
Here I have to form an actual argument saying "No because of this and that" - having a conversation.

tl\dr: you feel your opinion is more valuable than that of 20 others and thus you are a majority.

"

Finalstan#5006 a écrit :

On the issue upvoting system, I would be surprised if they didn't run a buzzword cloud or something like that in the background showing them what people talk about the most. Likely we don't need upvotes because of that, just talk about issues enough but of course I don't know if they do that; their patches have demonstrated they listened so there must be a way for them to get the info of what to prioritise from somewhere.

On the issue of exp and 'not dying' I think it's all a little silly. It's like saying that everything you have in life you owe it to only hard work. No privilege, no luck, nothing, just work hard and you'll get there. Similar here, we're assuming all deaths are preventable by improving builds and 'gettin gud' and that is simply, demonstrably and obviously false. Cheap shots, visual clutter, bugs, boomer reflexes, server/FPS slow-downs, mistiming a roll are just some examples. We're humans, can we not be punished too hard for being humans and also stop assuming that everything in the game is so perfectly coded that it all comes down to player skill and nothing else. And experiencing any of those things that gets you killed in the HOURS it takes to level up is very, very easy, almost guaranteed. Some people still succeed because they either invest in crazy offence to one-shot everything and/or ranged strategies, which has the effect on the game that only a couple of ways to play guarantees success. They become part of an elite club and they want to gate-keep others from entering it by telling them: you are wrong for mistiming one dodge roll, you are wrong to play close-quarter builds etc. dressed in 'get gud' comments or some such.

I don't know about the buzzword thingy, could be. What I know is - over the years I gave some unique feedback/solutions that made it into the patch notes that would not be picked up by the buzzword thingy, so they came up with the "fix" on their own or someone read what I wrote and gave it to them as a suggestion.

On the EXP-loss thing, I am with you but on the other side.
Instead of removing the EXP-loss I think GGG should ensure that we don't lose EXP to nonsense like "clutter on screen/bugs/connection problems/overtuned one-shots/etc.", you get what I mean. They obviously can't get rid of everything, bugs will always exist, but if you look at PoE1 - ppl don't actually care about "EXP-loss because the "bullshit" that kills you got changed over the years.

Remember times when a 250M Shaper DPS build couldn't kill a random Rare while getting one shot in half a second? I do.
Ironing out stuff like this, making it a better and fair game, should be higher priority than removing a mechanic that is in place for a reason.

"

I don't know how far you have progressed in PoE2, but judging by those 40 challenges I guess you know what you're doing in PoE.

Are you familiar with the situation in which your build is "correct" but your items are lacking? You cannot just change that with a snap of your fingers - maybe if they were holding a credit card.

What you're suggesting is getting expensive gear so you don't die to a misplay or even a few misplays in a row.

If you only enter a boss room when you can't lose, that's cowardly gameplay. But exactly that is promoted by the xp loss and your suggestions. Trying and learning a fight is disincentivized when your build might lack 10k EHP. 10k EHP that aren't in the passive tree, but that you could "simply" buy for 200 div if you didn't suck at the game. That's where your ignorance shows.

I get your point. Not everybody is able right at the start to know how to "fix" something to do what they want to do. But from my point of view, that's just part of the game.

Over the years, I had many ppl (new players) I did boss services for. They got the key, were too weak, but wanted the loot/progress - so they looked for help.

When wanted I explained to them what they needed to know/improve IF they wanted to do it themselves, so they often ended up in my friends list.

Every now and then someone in this list whispers me and reports happily to me "Yo dude! I made it! I killed my first Sirus on my first try" and that took some of them weeks or even months, depending on how much time they had to play the game.

My point is, there are always challenges/things you have to overcome, but that's just the nature of the game.

I have an easier analogy:
Let's say the "Level Up" is a dungeon.
So you have the entrance, you have multiple paths, traps, monsters, and at the end a chest with a reward, but you only got 3 lives.

Normally, you would try to avoid the monsters, search for traps to disarm, find the right path and so on until you get your reward at the end or you failed too often (getting damaged by a trap) that you fail the dungeon.

Here, in the dungeon, the progress you make is the "EXP gain", the reward in the chest is your "Level Up" and everything hostile is the "EXP-loss".

If you now remove the risk/challenge in the form of the traps/monsters (EXP-loss) you can just walk through the dungeon until you find the reward and you are done.
So what would be the point of having a dungeon in the first place?
Go in - get the reward? Why don't just hand you the reward in the first place?

It's about having something to overcome and YOU making a choice.

Do you try to prepare as well as possible and then do thing X?
Or do you delay thing X because the risk atm is too high?

"

Solmyr77#1930 a écrit :

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

The "+/-" vote system is worse than not having one in the first place.

The "bubble" or "cult" or "biased" or "hivemind" mentality would kick in real hard and is a major problem on sides like Reddit.

"Non-valid criticism" could be pushed up when enough "haters" align with it and vice versa "valid criticism" could be pushed down when enough "haters" disprove it.
In a forum without these up/down votes ppl at least need to back up their "position".

For example, on Reddit I could say "Map sustain is horrible" and ppl could just downvote my statement without proving anything, it's just gone to the bottom.
Here I have to form an actual argument saying "No because of this and that" - having a conversation.

tl\dr: you feel your opinion is more valuable than that of 20 others and thus you are a majority.

That's not what I said and meant...

It's about the creation of "False-True" and "True-False" reactions based on specific factors. Has literally nothing to do with me or what I think.

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

I get your point. Not everybody is able right at the start to know how to "fix" something to do what they want to do. But from my point of view, that's just part of the game.

I don't think you do. At least for me it's not about knowing WHAT to do, the HOW can be a problem given I'm no longer 20. For example my Gemling couldn't realistically do +4 Xesht before obtaining a Morior Invictus with attributes and all res. I suppose there are skilled players that can do that without gear, but that's not my point. The point is, by your definition I "fixed" my build with a lot of divines to purchase said armor and a new ring and magically I could do that fight multiple times in a row without fail.

This is neither rocket science nor good game design, it's a gear check unless you're Neo from the Matrix. And it might even be cool if you could try until you are Neo, but this very aspect, that has been promoted as a core feature of the game, this "meaningful combat, interesting bosses" has been eliminated from everyone's gameplay because people only pursue this content when it's no longer a challenge - due to 1 portal and xp loss.

"

JakkerONAIR#4902 a écrit :

I have an easier analogy:
Let's say the "Level Up" is a dungeon.

Dungeon is fine for that's usually a 1-2 hour endeavor. Losing that partial progress isn't completely unreasonable. Problem is, a lvl up in the 90s is more like 100 dungeons (or maps) in a row, so you're not losing partial progress of one dungeon but that of 10 full dungeons.