Devs don't read this and it's your fault

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Philvil#9636 a écrit :

The problem is that we rarely see people here who really care about the game and are genuinely asking the devs to make their beloved game better with constructive opinions and solutions on things that are currently really messy.

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Kaewis#5884 a écrit :

What saddens me is to see GGG's non-answers.

I understand that they're a bit overwhelmed with all the work they have to do, but it's disappointing to see them appear only to ban a thread or remind people that this is a place of “benevolence”.

I've tried twice to post “serious” threads about my more or less objective opinion of the state of the game (I'm aware that I'm nothing and nobody for GGG) but to see that all similar threads are ignored by GGG is a bit dismaying...

To both of you:
That's why an upvote system like on reddit would help to keep topics up top that a lot of people agree on.

I have also posted several feedback threads that got buried fast, for there was no angle to attack them, which is the only thing a certain group of people is interested in. We need the constructive posts on top, not the destructive ones.

Again and again I could bring up Last Epoch - not that they are saints, they also have issues -, where they have a voting feature for suggestions. You can propose a change and other users can give it one of their limited votes, which is separate from a generic "like" function. At least, that's how it was when I was around.

I'm honestly curious how the active (important definition) playerbase of PoE2 would vote on those controversial topics that get brought up every day.

I feel like a fair bit of the feedback I've been posting about has been acted upon (mainly issues with controller UI)

I don't make demands about changes to their ideology because it's their game and I consider that rude

GGG want friction. They want game balanced around robust trade. They want death to be something to avoid. Point out issues where this isn't working the way you believe they intended and need attention, but most negative posts around these issues are complaining that it's not <diablo/last epoch/grim dawn> and weak threats to their business model if they don't change their ways and make the game that CasualWith800Hours#6969 wants to play

The devil about their principles when designing this game is in the detail. Of course it's their prerogative but we're in EA and feedback is actively encouraged. Some things like more attempts at pinacles, have come from listening to feedback and this is a really great development. Literally nobody complains that this has been introduced now. Initial lack thereof was a result of their design philosophy. Introducing respawns does not compromise it, I don't think personally, while increasing player enjoyment = it's a win. And it's these wins we should be looking for while staying true to the design philosophy. However, if I die 5 times do I need to lose exp 5 times as well? Would once be enough? I think this is another easy win if we absolutely must keep such a steep exp loss curve (why not reduce it the higher up the level you go since exp gain is MUCH slower? Another easy win while keeping principles intact).

I feel like GGG starts with making things as punishing as their perceived players' tolerance can allow and scale back. But players have grown up since early POE1 days, have families and kids etc. TIME WASTING is the biggest enemy, which I don't think they fully realise they HAVE TO make part of their design philosophy to actively avoid at all cost. A dad playing 1hr a day can't lose few hours'=days worth of progress and be expected to come back and still enjoy the game. Maybe once, twice etc. they will but on 10th death they simply won't come back (many already haven't). GGG needs to wake up to this fast.

This dad with 1hr a day (at most!) plays within his capabilities and doesn't die every half hour, or doesn't expect to get past level 90 with his time commitments. He isn't making demands that he gets everything more committed players are getting.

I don't think the issue is with the single hour dads, there are plenty of games out there if this one doesn't gel, it's with people who are bored with diablo etc and want to bumrush another game

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Strangehill#1736 a écrit :

most negative posts around these issues are complaining that it's not <diablo/last epoch/grim dawn> and weak threats to their business model if they don't change their ways and make the game that CasualWith800Hours#6969 wants to play

To be fair, the people comparing PoE to other big arpgs have a broader view of the genre. Also, none of these games is perfect.

I'd guess we (almost) all agree that open world is a negative aspect that D4 never should have had. That's why people complain about it there, mentioning how PoE, LE and GD don't have it.

But this is the PoE forum and the same happens with PoE-only issues. You have people with outside experience criticizing them because they know it can work otherwise and you have people who only lived and breathed PoE for the past decade and D2 before that, that are afraid of change and get very defensive on those subjects.

Not saying either voice is more important but some members of the latter group tend to act like theirs matters more for they know it all when technically they know much less.

I've played plenty of diablo and enough of last epoch to have an observed opinion of those games, and my opinion is that they don't have the magic that makes PoE work for me, that every time I log in, regardless of how little time I have, that my session has had some level of impact rather than spinning in my wheel for a bit

I don't know exactly what that magic is, if it's "I managed 5 maps without dying" or "I found something of value that will assist next time", but all I can say is that PoE has it and diablo does not have it

If I end up losing something, the feeling is bad, but remove that and the feeling of success is as empty as the inverse

As for sides, I'd rather the argument didn't exist at all and this forum was for feedback like "this boss is overtuned and needs to be less impactful at this point in the levelling process" rather than "your game sucks and if you don't change it you're going to die in a fire"

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Solmyr77#1930 a écrit :

To both of you:
That's why an upvote system like on reddit would help to keep topics up top that a lot of people agree on.

I couldn't agree more.

However, I don't think GGG will ever do it to keep the forum “smooth” if you can put it that way.

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Strangehill#1736 a écrit :

I've played plenty of diablo and enough of last epoch to have an observed opinion of those games, and my opinion is that they don't have the magic that makes PoE work for me

Perfectly fine, I'm also here currently for PoE2 is more interesting to me than the other games. Never even bought D4, the free beta weekend had too many red flags for me. Played half a year of LE.

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Strangehill#1736 a écrit :

If I end up losing something, the feeling is bad, but remove that and the feeling of success is as empty as the inverse

Well, this topic of xp loss is highly controversial in this small niche that is the PoE forum, outside of it, it's pretty much solved.

I personally don't believe in taking things away in a game, which is supposed to be fun. Not getting anything is enough of a punishment imo. In football, if you lose a match, you get zero points, but you don't get the points subtracted that you earned last week.

To me, it's a game design flaw because it disincentivizes taking risks, but rather encourages cowardly gameplay - which is what hardcore was made for. If you're between 30 and 99% of a level, better don't run that content. It's true that it doesn't really matter if you're 90, 95 or 100, but it causes more feelsbad than it helps the game.

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Strangehill#1736 a écrit :

As for sides, I'd rather the argument didn't exist at all and this forum was for feedback like "this boss is overtuned and needs to be less impactful at this point in the levelling process" rather than "your game sucks and if you don't change it you're going to die in a fire"

I'm with you here, but there's a lot of low iq posts from both "sides".

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Kaewis#5884 a écrit :

I couldn't agree more.

However, I don't think GGG will ever do it to keep the forum “smooth” if you can put it that way.

Thanks. I guess all we can do is try and provide them with outside perspectives. The Blizzard of old became THE game designer when they combined the best stuff from other games with their own ideas. When WoW came out, no game did anything better in PvE content.
GGG has done this with D2 and made PoE1 its spiritual successor, which is still the best arpg around. But this time around with PoE2 I feel like they should have looked beyond their cave a bit more. We don't do our laundry in the river in 2025.

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Solmyr77#1930 a écrit :

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Philvil#9636 a écrit :

The problem is that we rarely see people here who really care about the game and are genuinely asking the devs to make their beloved game better with constructive opinions and solutions on things that are currently really messy.

"

Kaewis#5884 a écrit :

What saddens me is to see GGG's non-answers.

I understand that they're a bit overwhelmed with all the work they have to do, but it's disappointing to see them appear only to ban a thread or remind people that this is a place of “benevolence”.

I've tried twice to post “serious” threads about my more or less objective opinion of the state of the game (I'm aware that I'm nothing and nobody for GGG) but to see that all similar threads are ignored by GGG is a bit dismaying...

To both of you:
That's why an upvote system like on reddit would help to keep topics up top that a lot of people agree on.

I have also posted several feedback threads that got buried fast, for there was no angle to attack them, which is the only thing a certain group of people is interested in. We need the constructive posts on top, not the destructive ones.

Again and again I could bring up Last Epoch - not that they are saints, they also have issues -, where they have a voting feature for suggestions. You can propose a change and other users can give it one of their limited votes, which is separate from a generic "like" function. At least, that's how it was when I was around.

I'm honestly curious how the active (important definition) playerbase of PoE2 would vote on those controversial topics that get brought up every day.

I don't know man, while I agree it's a good idea in theory, that could turn this place into reddit 2.0. There is something I really hate in reddit and that's people making legit questions about the game, asking for help, and getting downvoted to hell. Only things that get upvoted there are hivemind opinions like stupid things everyone would agree, ie: this game needs more gems/classes, or memes.

What I mean is, not every post with 0 upvotes in reddit is useless, the same could happen here and hide good posts even from the dev team and make them judge the post irrelevant without reading it, they are human beings after all, and human beings judge things.

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I personally don't believe in taking things away in a game, which is supposed to be fun. Not getting anything is enough of a punishment imo. In football, if you lose a match, you get zero points, but you don't get the points subtracted that you earned last week.

Making a mistake in a football match is the "EXP-loss" and if you make enough mistakes you won't win the match (won't level up).

Can you lose so hard that you lose your prior match? Nope.
Can you lose so hard that you lose a prior level? Nope.

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To me, it's a game design flaw because it disincentivizes taking risks, but rather encourages cowardly gameplay - which is what hardcore was made for. If you're between 30 and 99% of a level, better don't run that content. It's true that it doesn't really matter if you're 90, 95 or 100, but it causes more feelsbad than it helps the game.

It's not a design flaw, it's working as intended.
The real issue is that some ppl have the mindset "Nah, I don't do content X because I could lose my exp progress" instead of improving their build so they don't need to think of a possible "EXP-loss" in the first place.

It's so weird. Instead of going "I use all tools given to me - so I don't die" ppl go "Remove EXP-loss". This system is there in place for a reason. Removing it would let you level up no matter what you do (how poorly you play or how weak your character is) and you would be rewarded with "power" you should not gain until you improve.