Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

Poe is gear based game. Skill means little. Build can get one only so far. And if anyone wants to play something else than searing bond or det dead he is gear limited.

Gear can be found (yeah..right) or bought

To buy one need currency (bartering never happens in gear for gear form)

Currency can be found, traded/scammed for and produced.

First one is pure luck. Second is trading that has no fun aspec for me (but has lots for many). Producing currency requires stash space to complete recipes.

While producing looks like feeding in dumpster it is STEADY, RELIABLE AND PREDICTABLE source of income.
And there enters stash tabs and pay to win.

Recipes that are important: chaos recipes/regal recipes, 5chance recipe, 5same items, 2stone ring recipes, gcp recipe and in new leagues bauble recipe (dont laugh. Getting baubles is a challenge in very fresh leagues and quality flasks esp utility ones are strong). Chisel recipe does not require tabs as it can be done immediatelly.

All these require space. One can pretend that these produce small bits of currency but lets get real. It is guaranteed currency. It beats killing mobs if one has a bad rng.

How can anyone with 4tabs perform these? This is where stash tabs are providing significant ingame advantage: they SIGNIFICANTLY simplify in-game money acquisition. Mules etc are ofc possible but lets get real. How much time does it take? Note that i do not even mention trading advantage created with excess tabs.

In a gear centric and trade centric game that poe is current stash tab situation is p2w. And i do not care. But lets call tree a tree and not something else.

OP, have you ever seen a truly P2W game?

I'll throw an MMO title: Runes of magic

Just to give an idea:

Items there can have 6 stats.

Each stat can be extract from certain items
To extract a stat you need a purified fusion stone, which costs 270 pyrius coins (you can get max 100 per day) or 39 diamonds iirc, which is the currency that can be bought with real money.

You need at least 6 purified fusion stones to make a single equip. There are iirc 12 equips total.

Also, an high equip (the ones dropped in endgame istances) becomes bind to account on pick up. In order to sell this items you need an advanced bind lifter which costs 199 diamonds and will destroy the lift UNTIL THE ITEM IS RE-EQUIPPED, so if you want to sell it again you'll need a normal bind lifer which costs 39 diamonds.

Not to mention that on real money shop sometimes under promotions there were very fuking strong items which couldn't be found ingame (example: tier X runes, which costed 199 diamonds for 3 of those)

THIS is P2W. PoE is not even close to the concept of pure P2W

"

sidtherat a écrit :

Recipes that are important: chaos recipes/regal recipes, 5chance recipe, 5same items, 2stone ring recipes, gcp recipe and in new leagues bauble recipe (dont laugh. Getting baubles is a challenge in very fresh leagues and quality flasks esp utility ones are strong). Chisel recipe does not require tabs as it can be done immediatelly.

- 5 same items : that's a joke, basically, that gives you one extra rare every 5 rare for the cost of not getting any shard out of the 5 rares ...
- 2 stone rings : wth there, it take basically no space, in addition to be close to completely pointless
- gcp recipe : takes almost no space
- bauble recipe : takes almost no space, twice more than gcp that is already almost nothing, but here there is no problem/sacrifice in selling instantly as soon as it's ready, because all of those are not worth much anyway.
- 5 chance : this one could take space, but when not hoarding pointlessly stuff where you don't actually have the unique for it, it's still fine, mule a little bit and there you go if you really want to do that recipe.

My best wand and few obscene amulets and belts come from '5the same item' recipe. Some item bases drop so rarely that each new 'roll' is appreciated.

People that trade might ignore it but for me imbueds and phropecy wands are always going to be vendored in 5packs. For me it paid off.

2stone ring recipe is the best bang for buck recipe out there..

As ive said. One can ignore and downplay these. But all these small things add up and quickly. Definitely one can produce 1ex easier than finding currency of similar value.

Btw several 'takes a little space' add up into takes a lot of space combined..

"

Mahesys a écrit :

OP, have you ever seen a truly P2W game?

I'll throw an MMO title: Runes of magic

Just to give an idea:

Items there can have 6 stats.

Each stat can be extract from certain items
To extract a stat you need a purified fusion stone, which costs 270 pyrius coins (you can get max 100 per day) or 39 diamonds iirc, which is the currency that can be bought with real money.

You need at least 6 purified fusion stones to make a single equip. There are iirc 12 equips total.

Also, an high equip (the ones dropped in endgame istances) becomes bind to account on pick up. In order to sell this items you need an advanced bind lifter which costs 199 diamonds and will destroy the lift UNTIL THE ITEM IS RE-EQUIPPED, so if you want to sell it again you'll need a normal bind lifer which costs 39 diamonds.

Not to mention that on real money shop sometimes under promotions there were very fuking strong items which couldn't be found ingame (example: tier X runes, which costed 199 diamonds for 3 of those)

THIS is P2W. PoE is not even close to the concept of pure P2W

I wouldn't call runes of magic 'pay to win' though.... that steaming pile is pure 'pay or fail' at the end game with upgrading gear to the upper tiers. Extracting stats was nothing, getting a max stat item at +4 was nothing but cheap in game gold stuff that gave you crap stats... then +10 and hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars later your stats are now x2000 what they were before... but it was a broken, unbalanced, buggy, badly designed mess anyway without even touching the paywall crap.

"

sidtherat a écrit :

My best wand and few obscene amulets and belts come from '5the same item' recipe. Some item bases drop so rarely that each new 'roll' is appreciated.

By the time that you spend doing that, you could also probably have gathered enough for an alch + a scour if you are not self found you know ...

"

sidtherat a écrit :

Btw several 'takes a little space' add up into takes a lot of space combined..

If you do them all ... get one or two mules, and there you go.

"

Jiero a écrit :

"

Mahesys a écrit :

OP, have you ever seen a truly P2W game?

I'll throw an MMO title: Runes of magic

Just to give an idea:

Items there can have 6 stats.

Each stat can be extract from certain items
To extract a stat you need a purified fusion stone, which costs 270 pyrius coins (you can get max 100 per day) or 39 diamonds iirc, which is the currency that can be bought with real money.

You need at least 6 purified fusion stones to make a single equip. There are iirc 12 equips total.

Also, an high equip (the ones dropped in endgame istances) becomes bind to account on pick up. In order to sell this items you need an advanced bind lifter which costs 199 diamonds and will destroy the lift UNTIL THE ITEM IS RE-EQUIPPED, so if you want to sell it again you'll need a normal bind lifer which costs 39 diamonds.

Not to mention that on real money shop sometimes under promotions there were very fuking strong items which couldn't be found ingame (example: tier X runes, which costed 199 diamonds for 3 of those)

THIS is P2W. PoE is not even close to the concept of pure P2W

I wouldn't call runes of magic 'pay to win' though.... that steaming pile is pure 'pay or fail' at the end game with upgrading gear to the upper tiers. Extracting stats was nothing, getting a max stat item at +4 was nothing but cheap in game gold stuff that gave you crap stats... then +10 and hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars later your stats are now x2000 what they were before... but it was a broken, unbalanced, buggy, badly designed mess anyway without even touching the paywall crap.

Just the fact that in cash shop were sold extremely powerful items which couldn't be found ingame whick directly empowered your character (see X runes) gives an idea of how much RoM was P2W.

Pay or fail is a more exact definition tho. Without buying something from the shop you were screwed

"

Fruz a écrit :

"

sidtherat a écrit :

My best wand and few obscene amulets and belts come from '5the same item' recipe. Some item bases drop so rarely that each new 'roll' is appreciated.

By the time that you spend doing that, you could also probably have gathered enough for an alch + a scour if you are not self found you know ...

"

sidtherat a écrit :

Btw several 'takes a little space' add up into takes a lot of space combined..

If you do them all ... get one or two mules, and there you go.

You go to work on foot? Or maybe use your bike car or public transport?
Because it is just that. You CAN get there of foot you JUST need to get up earlier and have your after work time reduced to zero. It is the same concept.

And no. I do not think that vendoring wands and belts would have gave me enough to aclh scour. Collecting few base items for 5ofakind recipe costs me no time because i have spare tab for that. It costs a lot of time people without tabs. And this is p2w. But i was sure youll be the first to deny that..

"

sidtherat a écrit :

You go to work on foot? Or maybe use your bike car or public transport?
Because it is just that. You CAN get there of foot you JUST need to get up earlier and have your after work time reduced to zero. It is the same concept.

And no. I do not think that vendoring wands and belts would have gave me enough to aclh scour. Collecting few base items for 5ofakind recipe costs me no time because i have spare tab for that.

Yes
No point taking the bus/car/whatever if I can afford to do it.
That's the same here.

Noone needs extra stash tabs to perform in this game ( unless bad players maybe, but that's another mater ... ).

Alts piles up very fast, and if it's only about wands/belt, then it takes basically no space, and definitely not too much to be done with a single mule if needed lol.

"

Fruz a écrit :

Is LoL P2W ? Of course it isn't.
It's about convenience.

If two equally skilled players face each other and one bought extra runepages with money which the other cannot afford, then the people that didn't pay for the runepages is at massive disadvantage.

A clear example of where specialized runepages mean a hell lot is the ryze vs pantheon match-up. If you don't have a specialized runepage, ryze will lose vs pantheon, if he has specialized he will win. Specialized runepages cost a lot of time to acquire through games. (Just unlocking 1 extra rune page will cost you like 50 hours)

However, at the highest tier of competitive playing, it doesn't matter since all parties have all runes, enough rune pages and all champions unlocked.