MANA LEECH IS RUINED

"

tikitaki a écrit :

Making your build work by investing in something like 7+ mana regen nodes is not something to be proud of.

That is ~7% of your skill points. Do you seriously think that because you invested one point in mind drinker or you have one leech affix that you are entitled to not have to invest in any other form of resource management?

If you want to run on pure leech, you need a build designed around pure leech, just like how if you want to run on pure regen you have to build around it.

Otherwise, you're going to be mixing and matching and finding what works.
Seriously, man up and run clarity on HP if you seriously cannot think of any other way to manage your mana for now.

"

tikitaki a écrit :

Making your build work by investing in something like 7+ mana regen nodes is not something to be proud of.

*facepalm*

Contrast this to just grabbing more life nodes and using blood magic, which:

1) Makes you more survivable
and
2) Offers substantially more leech rate.

It looks like you didn't really understand Emphasy's post.

7+ points to get one more socket ( since he's not using mana leech ) ... is definitely worth it.

"

xendran a écrit :

That is ~7% of your skill points. Do you seriously think that because you invested one point in mind drinker or you have one leech affix that you are entitled to not have to invest in any other form of resource management?

Exactly, way too many people takes way too many things for granted, this included.

Another Factor: Dropping one of your auras can potentially give you enough mana to clear a pack before you run out.

I'm serious, i have dropped hatred or grace at times because of this and it IS a viable option when you are also relying on keeping your attacks up to leech health back, or any other secondary functions you have on your attacks.

But people are too lazy to think about this and just want to faceroll and have no mana issues with 1 point/affix/gem investment.

Frenzy is a good example of this by the way, you can at times GAIN dps by dropping hatred because it lets you keep up your maxed out frenzy charged attacks until the pack is dead rather than stopping every so often.

"

Xendran a écrit :

"

tikitaki a écrit :

Making your build work by investing in something like 7+ mana regen nodes is not something to be proud of.

That is ~7% of your skill points. Do you seriously think that because you invested one point in mind drinker or you have one leech affix that you are entitled to not have to invest in any other form of resource management?

If you want to run on pure leech, you need a build designed around pure leech, just like how if you want to build on pure regen you have to build around it.

Otherwise, you're going to be mixing and matching and finding what works.
Seriously, man up and run clarity on HP if you seriously cannot think of any other way to manage your mana for now.

I don't know why you keep resorting to childish personal attacks.

This isn't about *me*. I didn't make this thread, and I'm not the original poster.

That being said, absolutely builds that previously worked are not going to work. Yes, adapting is obviously what needs to happen, but this is a feedback thread.

Maybe every time you post any kind of feedback, I should just say "shut up and adapt and learn to play."

Also, don't put words in my mouth as an argumentation strategy.

I never mentioned the mind drinker node, and I also didn't say that a single node entitled you to /anything/.

I merely stated that investing 7+ nodes in mana regen to support a 5L incinerate spell does not bode well for mana as a whole, and it doesn't exactly prove his point.

Mana is in a terrible state. Yes, you can make stuff "work" with it, but I wouldn't say it's something that doesn't deserve some substantial negative feedback.

"

Xendran a écrit :

Another Factor: Dropping one of your auras can potentially give you enough mana to clear a pack before you run out.

...Everybody who knows how mana works does this in PoE when they have to. This is nothing new.

I don't throw around the term entitled lightly.
This IS a situation where people feel entitled to a free ride.
You blatantly ignore the "for now" part of "adapt for now".
We aren't calling anything balanced. You can say it's imbalanced all you want. But claiming that the majority of your builds are just flat out not going to work is false, and that is what we have a problem with. It shows a lack of actual knowledge about the subject of resource management, which brings into question your judgement of whether or not it is balanced.

I won't address the rest of your post because everybody who has read this thread is already thinking the same thing I am so there is no need for me to say it.

"

Xendran a écrit :

I don't throw around the term entitled lightly.
This IS a situation where people feel entitled to a free ride.
You blatantly ignore the "for now" part of "adapt for now".

I won't address the rest of your post because everybody who has read this thread is already thinking the same thing I am so there is no need for me to say it.

You won't address it because you have no response. XD

It's very easy, even trivial, to just say "you're bad, learn to play" to somebody making the argument that mana is trashy at the moment.

It's a little bit harder to actually address what they said.

Focus less on straw men (putting words into my mouth and making shit up that I didn't even say - then responding to that instead) - and more on things that I actually said.

Thanks.

"

Xendran a écrit :

But claiming that the majority of your builds are just flat out not going to work is false

here's an example of some stupid bullshit that you literally made up - something i never said.

this is how you prefer to communicate with other people it seems. make shit up, then respond to the fictional made-up people inside your head.

it doesn't really help you at all, though. it's pretty easy to see through this, by just comparing what you claim people say to what they actually say.

Thing is, most of my stuff you assumed is aimed at you specifically is aimed at the group of people heavily exaggerating the situation, and the things you are saying seemed to be in a defense of that. I see a ton of people talking about how their builds are broken and unfixable now.

Page 5 is where shit started to hit the fan and misunderstandings started getting whirled around on both sides.

Guess the fact that i don't bother clarifying whether I'm still talking about the person i quoted or if i've changed to another person/group really really didn't help that situation.


To compress everything i feel into something concise:

Mana is not balanced, however Mana is not suddenly impossible to sustain with the leech changes.
One must adapt to sustain until it is balanced, and it is significantly easier than the majority have been making it out to be.


One thing i will say: While you don't necessarily fall into the "MANA LEECH RUINED CANNOT FIX CHARACTER" group that i initially thought you were a part of, you still seem to heavily exaggerate the cost of investing into resource management.

"

Sinnesteuer a écrit :

So, why are all these casters with mana issues not going low life by reserving life for auras with Blood Magic support and taking advantage of Pain Attunement?

And the idea that mana regen, from the tree and from items, is "worthless" is a joke. Mana regen, with the kind of mana pool that an INT based caster (like the Witch), is going to have a huge effect on your ability to sustain. Again, in Domination I managed to support lvl 17 Incinerate+GMP+Faster Proj+Life Leech+Added Chaos while running lvl 15 Arctic Armor. 180% increased mana regen from the tree, coupled with gear choices, and Clarity + Discipline + Blood Magic + Reduced Mana. If I continue the build there will be more regen, 100% uptime on lvl 20 AA is the plan there (what elemental reflect mob?). EDIT: Almost forgot, the only time that my mana pool even drops on that character is in a -regen map. No, it can't do blood magic map mods, it does fine in chaos damage maps unless coupled with -max. No, I don't have Shav's.

L2resourcemanagement.

That would simply mean go Low-Life build or fuck off.

There should be viable caster-alternative that do not require being low-life. And even then you want to use Ghost-Reaver for survivability, which doesn't allow leeching life back up, so the problem is still the same. Using ES and using the BM-Gem at the same time isn't going to work out, since in that case using Life-Leech + BM just for sustaining the cost of your skill is actually worse than using mana-leech. Life-Leech + BM is only better if you actually use Life-Leech for survivability and sustaining your skill-usage at the same time.

"

We aren't calling anything balanced. You can say it's imbalanced all you want. But claiming that the majority of your builds are just flat out not going to work is false, and that is what we have a problem with.

I won't argue about that too much. This argument is very subjective, since there is no clear definition what is actually considered "a build". You could argue that switching over to some Aura-passivs and clarity already makes it another build.

While the thread-topic although greatly overdramatic is on point the original post quickly derails into the build-question. If you just skilled your build like you did before 1.1.0 because you didn't expect the leech-changes to be that heavy you are propably fucked, exspecially if your mana-sustain was at the edge already, which is possible.

However it doesn't help the discussion at all to permanently point that out, because it is something most people will agree on and if you don't actually call it "build breaking" but explaining the problem in detail it is more understandable.

The OP obviously has a problem with his old build which he seems to have reconstructed in 1.1.0 isn't able to sustain it's mana which it did before. That is a very valid complain exspecially considering that sustaining mana on a CI-Char already wasn't trivial. Calling it build-breaking is a bit dangerous since it baits a discussion like this which is fueled by different views about how defining the characteristics of a build are.

It is propably far easier to agree on the point that mana-based casters without EB are hit unnecessary hard by the leech nerf, considering that they weren't that strong in general.

"

tikitaki a écrit :

Making your build work by investing in something like 7+ mana regen nodes is not something to be proud of.

*facepalm*

Contrast this to just grabbing more life nodes and using blood magic, which:

1) Makes you more survivable
and
2) Offers substantially more leech rate.

It looks like you didn't really understand Emphasy's post.

Yes, you can make mana regen "work." But at what cost? ;)

Look, I've got it that you have a hard-on for me, but that build is solid, and wrecks faces. It is also a total blast to play.

What makes you think I was addressing Emphasy, anyway? I was addressing the OP's ranting post above.

The choice to build for mana regen is not unlike most other choices in the game. Each closes off, or makes more difficult, some options, while opening up, or enabling, other options. What each player determines to work for themselves should be different. My feedback in this thread is that, as a resource, mana is as viable an option as life, it just requires different thinking.

What you seem to be proposing could result in mana becoming an overpowered option, something that would not be good for the game. The leech changes had an equal effect on all leech, that mana leeches at a different rate than life was previously the case. If you were pushing the envelope of resource management prior the patch, and depended on leech, then your build will have to find other options.

I have started to build my "main" for Ambush, a dual claw, low life, blood rage, Elemental Reave Shadow. I'll let you know how "broken" I find the leech changes after I have done some 74+ maps with it. Do you want to try and provide me with some interesting limitations to build around, aside from what I've already got? I'm already planning on skipping Vaal Pact, too far to travel, so you can tick that one off the list. I have no unique item requirements to make the build work (although I wouldn't scoff at an Atziri's Foible, that thing is OP!), but I know what mods I am going to look for.

"

Xendran a écrit :

Thing is, most of my stuff you assumed is aimed at you specifically is aimed at the general forum base, and the things you are saying seemed to be in a defense of that. I see a ton of people talking about how their builds are broken and unfixable now.

Page 5 is where shit started to hit the fan and misunderstandings started getting whirled around on both sides.

Guess the fact that i don't bother clarifying whether I'm still talking about the person i quoted or if i've changed to another person/group really really didn't help that situation.


To compress everything i feel into something concise:

Mana is not balanced, however Mana is not suddenly impossible to sustain with the leech changes.
One must adapt to sustain until it is balanced, and it is significantly easier than the majority have been making it out to be.

This is straw men argumentation by the book, nearly a classic example. All you'd have to do is replace the context with something more traditional and you could use this as an example in a university course.

The strategy is:

1) Invent an entity, or reference one.
2) Make up some stupid bullshit that they say
3) If it is a real person and they object, you could say it's a "theoretical person" or aimed at a "general populace"
4) Reply to the stupid bullshit you just made up.

For example, I can't find any reference to any entity in this thread saying the "majority of builds will not work."

So basically, you made that up. Here's another one:

"

and it is significantly easier than the majority have been making it out

So, how hard does the "majority" claim to be "making it out?" Are you running some sort of poll? Is there a 1 - 10 scale on how "hard" it is?

Most likely it's far more simple than you suggest, and people are just pissed and frustrated that their builds stopped working.

Why this frustration is so hard to understand, I will never know. My theory is, the people who don't understand the frustration have never had a build rendered unplayable due to a patch before.