MANA LEECH IS RUINED

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tikitaki a écrit :

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

QQ post over First World Problems.

"Waaah, I can't deal with resource management on my 6L...."

Cheese, needed for this wine.

Why are posts like this allowed on the feedback forum?

I've been put on probation for /far less/

Your argument seems to be:

"You must be rich since you have a 6L. Since you are rich, that justifies your builds getting ruined by a patch change, even though your build was not in any way OP."

No, my argument is that 6L skills should, for balance, have insane resource costs. One of the trade-offs for the added supports is a dramatic increase in cost. Either you plan and prepare for those costs or you don't try to run a 6L.

That is how I interpret the OP of this thread. He's upset that he can't continue to run his 6L as before, and I am willing to bet that the build and gear loadout is lacking in +mana, +% max mana, and +% mana regen.

In Domination I ran a 5L Incinerate build with no mana leech, pure regen, with AA and no EB (was low life). I could even do it on -50% regen maps. Get reckt.

Players adapting to the changes in leech is ruined, not the leech itself.

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KenshiD a écrit :

Without reading any of what has been posted here:

My setup, is totally fine and sustains my mana pretty well. (though I do only have 2atk/s)

But I agree on faster attacks with less leech, my mana gets depleted really fast.

Using Mana Leech gem to sustain 3L Double Strike with 2APS is not something I would boast about.

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Xendran a écrit :

I use Frenzy + Melee Splash and stack attack speed to the tits. I know all about lots of simultaneous hits.

Believe it or not that is probably one scenario where you won't get hurt that bad. Sure, in your case you have lots of simultaneous hits, but I bet you are attacking extremely quickly. Also, Frenzy has pretty high damage effectiveness, etc.

Compare this to say, using Chain, which nerfs your damage effectiveness tremendously in exchange for hitting 30+ targets simultaneous. All of the sudden mana leech can become a huge problem.

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Xendran a écrit :

I can see this hurting something like a battery build that tries to maintain full leech, or somebody with an aoe that is either weak or relies on indirect damage. Thing is, i'm seeing a ton of endgame melee players complaining. If your damage is low enough that you can't constantly leech while attacking, and you have absolutely no possible way to restore your mana in between packs, you are probably doing something wrong.

This makes literally no sense to me.

People play the game based on what works. A ton of melee players are complaining because their build ceased to work.

If it worked before, how could it be "wrong" no matter what numbers you throw around? You either sustain enough to keep going, or you don't. There's no "wrong" if it's working.

It only becomes "wrong" when it stops working, which is what the patch did for many people.

So to say it was "wrong" before the patch, is misleading at best and outright false at worst.

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Xendran a écrit :

When you run life leech on a life character, do you drop your health flasks?
If not, why do you feel entitled to be able to drop your mana flasks when running mana leech?[/b][/i]

Absurd argument. Whether you use life or mana, if your health drops to zero you are dead.

A blood magic character thus has a much easier time with this issue as they don't need any mana flasks.

When you use mana, you are already at a relative handicap in many ways because you need to divide your gear attention between two different pools instead of simply maximizing the one that keeps you alive (life).

This compounds further when you realize your leech rate is proportional to your TOTAL life/mana, which makes it much easier to have a high life leech rate than a high mana leech rate...

In summary: I don't think anybody feels "entitled" to not run mana flasks - but I do think many people, myself included, feel the balance of mana is more than a bit out of whack at the moment.

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

No, my argument is that 6L skills should, for balance, have insane resource costs.

Blood magic + life leech.

Insane resource costs gone.

That was hard.

Basically, your argument stops making sense when you realize that you can still make 6L skills trivially easy to cast and sustain. It's simply using mana that makes them resource intensive. I don't really see this as "balanced."

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A blood magic character thus has a much easier time with this issue as they don't need any mana flasks.

When you use mana, you are already at a relative handicap in many ways because you need to divide your gear attention between two different pools instead of simply maximizing the one that keeps you alive (life).

Lol.
Well this is my final post then, you clearly don't actually play the game if you think this has any semblance of truth in reality. Blatantly ignoring aspects of things that don't line up with your point of view.

I agree mana balance is not good. Leech has not been "runied" though, and these builds did not "stop working". They stopped working AS IS. People are just too stubborn to adapt.

My builds work fine, because i put effort into theorycrafting and finding ways to compensate for weaknesses. If you can't do that, practice more.


EDIT: Your post below has just confirmed that this will indeed be my last post here, as this won't turn into an actual discussion with the amount of things you are blatantly ignoring to distort your side.


But good luck with whatever you're doing.

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Xendran a écrit :

"

A blood magic character thus has a much easier time with this issue as they don't need any mana flasks.

When you use mana, you are already at a relative handicap in many ways because you need to divide your gear attention between two different pools instead of simply maximizing the one that keeps you alive (life).

Lol.
Well this is my final post then, you clearly don't actually play the game if you think this has any semblance of truth in reality.

So you're saying, stacking ONLY life is harder, or equally hard, as getting both high life AND mana on your gear?

Maybe it's a fluke that all that EB gear is so expensive. *eyeroll*

Because having armor pieces with high armor, high ES, and high life, is cheap, and easy.

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Xendran a écrit :

My builds work fine, because i put effort into theorycrafting and finding ways to compensate for weaknesses. If you can't do that, practice more.

If you can't counter the argument, insult the person.

If you can't see that many builds and ratios that worked fine before the patch, will cease working now, then you clearly have a very narrow view on builds.

It could also be due to a lack of experience on your part.

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Xendran a écrit :

these builds did not "stop working". They stopped working AS IS

My neighbor hit a deer recently and totaled their car.

Of course, the car did not actually "stop working." It just stopped working "as is."

Technically, the car still "works", you just have to replace the entire front end and re-align everything.

Do you see how absurd it sounds when you try to apply your ridiculous standards to everyday things?

Blood Magic + Life leech =/= Insane resource cost gone


Blood Magic + Life Leech = insane resource cost ACCOUNTED FOR


If you can't see the difference between the two....


Happy you glossed over my statement about 5L Incinerate on pure mana regen with no Eldritch Battery while running AA. As the example of a hard caster that does not use mana leech but can still maintain spam casting does not support your argument that without the old mana leech the use of mana for resource is broken.

Really, be careful what it is you are actually wishing for here, tikitorch, you might just get it and discover that you were mistaken all along.

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KenshiD a écrit :

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Fruz a écrit :

Multi-target non-instant skill are highly affected by the leech changes, I don't know how it works with melee splash, it probably counts the whole hit for leeching, and therefore isn't handicapped by those changes in the middle of the fight.

Not true.

My duelist in HC uses doublestrike melee splash with slitherpinch.
I cannot sustain his mana output and he even has better mana regen and gear than my ambush duelist.

This is all because he attacks faster.
Leech is now better with slower attack which deal high amounts of damage. While low damage, fast hitting attacks are affected by it because the splash DOES NOT leech as well.

I said this because with my flicker + melee splash setup, I don't have the problems that people are describing, It's a little bit more difficult than before ( especially in no regen maps ), but definitely not that bad, I can be mistaken about that ( thats why I said "probably" ) because I also have some mana regeneration though.
And I only use mind drinker for mana leeching.
So if it isn't considered as one big hit for leeching purposes, the AOE part is most likely ignored ( unles Conc effect, but that would not make it much better lol ).

My only statement was about multi-target non instant attacks, and it still stands.

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tikitaki a écrit :

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Fruz a écrit :

If you want to use 6L combo, you need to manage the resources needed to use it, this is just fair.

This is incorrect and misleading. For instance, using Blood Magic/Life Leech combination trivializes "resource management." Trying to sustain your spells with mana is about 100000x harder.

A point to any new players reading this: Fruz does not speak from experience. Do not take anything he says about Path of Exile seriously.

Not it's not, blood magic takes one slot, making it 5L only in term of dps/utility and therefore makes it less powerful, it reserves one if not two sockets to manage it, so it should be much easier with it, thank you captain obvious !
Wanting to endlessly spam a 6L expensive skill is a kid's caprice. There are other games that do that if you want, PoE should not be one of them.
also /lol for the second part, nice proof of you knowing how to argue/discuss/make points with someone.
Somehow I'm not surprised ...

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

QQ post over First World Problems.

"Waaah, I can't deal with resource management on my 6L...."

Cheese, needed for this wine.

^

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

Blood Magic + Life leech =/= Insane resource cost gone


Blood Magic + Life Leech = insane resource cost ACCOUNTED FOR

Seems to be a semantic argument. Gone, accounted for, same thing.

Either way, it's substantially more difficult to account for your mana costs when using mana, than it is when using life.

The goal is to keep casting without running out of mana/life.

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

If you can't see the difference between the two....

I can see the difference, if you choose to argue about such things. I think it's easier to just admit that you misrepresented or misunderstood what I meant.

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

Happy you glossed over my statement about 5L Incinerate on pure mana regen with no Eldritch Battery while running AA.

A single example of a working skill does not fix the current situation.

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

As the example of a hard caster that does not use mana leech but can still maintain spam casting does not support your argument that without the old mana leech the use of mana for resource is broken.

Really, be careful what it is you are actually wishing for here, tikitorch, you might just get it and discover that you were mistaken all along.

Are you honestly saying I'm mistaken by saying the balance of mana is completely out of whack atm?

When GGG turns around and boosts mana leech or the mana pool (or both), I'm going to turn around and spit this right back in your face.

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tikitaki a écrit :

When GGG turns around and boosts mana leech or the mana pool (or both), I'm going to turn around and spit this right back in your face.

Can I ask you to hold your breath until that happens?

EDIT:

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

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tikitaki a écrit :

When GGG turns around and boosts mana leech or the mana pool (or both), I'm going to turn around and spit this right back in your face.

Can I ask you to hold your breath until that happens?

It's either that or nerf Blood Magic.

Which do you prefer?

One of the two is going to happen.