The secret to balancing evasion

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Fruz a écrit :

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deteengo a écrit :

Look, the fact is, when you start doing really high level content (like you are level 95+ and are running 73+ level maps with mods), evasion does lose out from armour, and although Fruz appears to keep on arguing for the sakes of it, he actually hasn't answered the cirtical point, which is, what the hell happens when I happen to get hit 2 times in a row by hard hits

This situation would be ... your fault.

I really can't see how a bad RNG streak is the players fault. Evasion completely relies on RNG and entropy, thats how the mechanic works, its out of your control. This same mechanic for evasion works everywhere, every mob has a random chance to hit you. Armor is the opposite, it is in your completely control. You get hit with X raw damage, you take Y damage which is a formula applied to X.

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Fruz a écrit :

If you try to face tank potentially many really hard hitters at the same time ( and cannot insta-leech ), that means that you are reckless and you kind of deserve to die.

Yup, so it means you can't do as much content as an armor user, which means, well, you are just by definition weaker. When you run maps where that amount of damage is typical, your solution is to either waste more currency to do maps which are perfectly ideal for you, or waste more time trying to deal with content in the map that the armor user would find trivial

Your argument is logically fallacious, because by extension, the amount of content that an evasion user can handle is nothing, because any amount of content (due to how RnG works) is able to kill you

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Fruz a écrit :

But you know what ? In that case, you die for sure with armor, where evasion would have a chance to save you.

Nope you wouldn't

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Fruz a écrit :

So basically, you just come here and bring completely false arguments based on false assumptions for the sake of what ?

So you are telling me that evasion is not based on RnG then?

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Fruz a écrit :

And no, this is no "theoretically", armor is less efficient against hard hits, this is a very very obvious fact that noone with at least a basic understanding of the mechanism could deny if not being of a bad faith.

Theory != reality. I don't give a shit what theory tells me, what matters is reality, and in reality, armor is practically better than evasion, end of story. If you were to respec, right now, into IR, and run Grace + Determination (with no other real changes), you would overall, do much better in endgame maps. The amount of content you would be able to do would be much higher, and endgame effectiveness in PoE is all about time versus reward ratio.

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Fruz a écrit :

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deteego a écrit :

Its just really not feasible to get an insane health buffer + insane evasion + have enough damage to be viable.

You definitely don't know what you're talking about.

Well as long as you claim that evasion has no RnG, I don't think you have the credibility to make such claims

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tinko92 a écrit :

When I see videos.

I know we've butted heads but I'm genuinely asking for an opinion. I see videos of your build going around taking on purposely hard bosses so I'm wondering what you'd like to see to consider using evasion rather than your current set up.

My opinion about evasion is it's great early/mid game, pretty good in early maps and with godly gear everything goes well to about 75 maps. Once you start doing academy, shrine and either 78s I see it falling apart. My build was getting crushed playing shipyards ffs.

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Moosifer a écrit :

My opinion about evasion is it's great early/mid game, pretty good in early maps and with godly gear everything goes well to about 75 maps. Once you start doing academy, shrine and either 78s I see it falling apart. My build was getting crushed playing shipyards ffs.

Which is basically what every sensible person is saying in regards to evasion, once you start hitting the 73+ maps area with mods, your build starts getting crushed.

I only see evasion builds ever being viable for such content if

1. Some endgame evasion uniques get released which gives you either directly, or indirectly, enough health buffer to deal with the insane amounts of damage you deal at this stage of the game
2. Damage in these maps gets reduced, and GGG finally figures out a way to scale that isn't hurr durr damage

the bad RNG streak isnt the problem, the problem would be you trying to face-tank many very hitter at the same time, knowing how evasion works.


Different defence mechanisms means different behaviours, oh snap !
If you can't understand this, well ... it is sad for you.


And if you deny that taking 2 hard hits ( let's say 7k = the kind of hits that we are talking about for a while ) , that means that with those two hits : you take 9k damage basically.
GG, you are dead.

Besides, you can"t take two hits in a row from a high enough evasion value unless you get hit by other monsters at the same time.
Which means : you are trying to facetank 2 hard hitters + many small hitters, knowing that you are using evasion mechanism based on entropy ... how dumb is that ?

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deteego a écrit :

Well as long as you claim that evasion has no RnG, I don't think you have the credibility to make such claims

Someone said that evasion had no RnG ?
Because I didn't see it.

You know, trying to discredit people "blaming" them for what they didn't say only makes you loose credibility, that's basically a method used by people not capable of making an argument or just being wrong.
And you cannot actually deny that without being ridiculous because ... you know ... that's actually a fact.

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Moosifer a écrit :

My opinion about evasion is it's great early/mid game, pretty good in early maps and with godly gear everything goes well to about 75 maps. Once you start doing academy, shrine and either 78s I see it falling apart. My build was getting crushed playing shipyards ffs.

what was killing you in there ( shipyard ) ?

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Fruz a écrit :

the bad RNG streak isnt the problem, the problem would be you trying to face-tank many very hitter at the same time, knowing how evasion works.

In 73+ maps, almost every mob that does physical damage is hard hitter, is this hard to understand? Especially with crit mechanics

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Moosifer a écrit :

Different defence mechanisms means different behaviours, oh snap !
If you can't understand this, well ... it is sad for you.

Yeah, except with endurance charges + 40k armor, armour users are much better than evasion users in what they are meant to specialize in, and only marginally worse than evasion users in which area evasion is meant to specialize.

So overall, armor is better

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Fruz a écrit :

And if you deny that taking 2 hard hits ( let's say 7k = the kind of hits that we are talking about for a while ) , that means that with those two hits : you take 9k damage basically.
GG, you are dead.

Actually with endurance charges, that would be a lot less, so it would be closer to 6k. Seeing as how much life you can get as a typical armor player, because you can get 40k armor with just 6 nodes of investment, overall its still much better.

I have yet to see someone hit 10k evasion with only 6 nodes of investment in the tree, maybe they are running completely perfect mirrored gear in every slot, but, yeah....

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Fruz a écrit :

Besides, you can"t take two hits in a row from a high enough evasion value unless you get hit by other monsters at the same time.
Which means : you are trying to facetank 2 hard hitters + many small hitters, knowing that you are using evasion mechanism based on entropy ... how dumb is that ?

Well the alternative is to take 2-3 times as long to clear maps because you are pussyfooting around the majority of content that can possibly kill you

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Fruz a écrit :

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deteego a écrit :

Well as long as you claim that evasion has no RnG, I don't think you have the credibility to make such claims

Someone said that evasion had no RnG ?
Because I didn't see it.

You know, trying to discredit people "blaming" them for what they didn't say only makes you loose credibility, that's basically a method used by people not capable of making an argument or just being wrong.
And you cannot actually deny that without being ridiculous because ... you know ... that's actually a fact.

You are arguing in ignorance. Your whole argument completely ignores the fact that evasion relies on RnG. I called you out for it. If evasion didn't rely on RnG, such as 100% chance to evade X hits, then you would be right.

This however is not the case, so until you take into account RnG, I would recommend not responding

Wow you really do like quote wars ... -_-, you know it's annoying/hard to read, right ?

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deteego a écrit :

In 73+ maps, almost every mob that does physical damage is hard hitter, is this hard to understand? Especially with crit mechanics

We were talking about hard hits at the point where one shot would be possible for many builds, but since you probably did not read the whole thing from the start, you missed that I guess.
It all depends on what you call "hard hits".

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deteego a écrit :

I have yet to see someone hit 10k evasion with only 6 nodes of investment in the tree, maybe they are running completely perfect mirrored gear in every slot, but, yeah....

Let's see ... 400 dext, 3k evasion from gear, grace => 9k evasion without any %inc evasion from the tree.

"You don't know what you are talking about".

And actually, by playing smart, you don't really loose time and you don't die at all + you can just facetank single hard hitter bosses for example, without any downtime.


If you don't understand the whole conversation at the point that I consider that evasion does not rely on RnG at all, I definitely suggest that you re-read the whole thing, or ... not respond.


Stop polluting the forum with those kind of posts seriously, it's ridiculous and annoying.

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Fruz a écrit :

Stop taking things out of their context to try to make a point -___-".
YES, evasion is better than armor against large hits, it doesn't mean "evasion is better than armor".

I also never said that armor needed a nerf, you are completely deforming my posts there, why ?

"In other words, AR's design is better against small hit and worse against very big hit where evasion is not better against small hits but neither worse against very big ones"

My bad, I've read wrong here, I thought you've said "evasion is a lot better against small hits", which would lead evasion to be better in both situations.


Well, I just explained how armour is better than evasion against hard hits:

"Higher armour provides better combo with endurance charges, and thus making hard hits not so hard.
While evasion is a gamble"


The only thing where I see evasion to be better than armour, is to get lucky and not getting hit by heavy attacks that would kill any armour build.


Since you find IR combos OP, that suggests it needs a nerf, logically.

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Moosifer a écrit :

I know we've butted heads but I'm genuinely asking for an opinion. I see videos of your build going around taking on purposely hard bosses so I'm wondering what you'd like to see to consider using evasion rather than your current set up.

For one, if I am to play evasion build, I'd have to stop playing the way I like. And therefore making evasion worse in the very start.

Everything beside boss fights is a complete garbage, especially in party play, where you can't see anything from effects and items, it's super easy with all the auras and monsters get to target 6 players instead of 1, horrible boring gameplay... yada yada, complete off topic.

And since evasion is a gamble gameplay, where I'm not 100% sure that I can survive the incoming monsters, I can't play like that, not when I can lose a whole day or two because of bad luck.
I don't know, I keep telling the same thing and I stumble upon people that claim it's not like that, and when I ask for a proof, a practical part of that, I don't get it, and we all know why.

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Fruz a écrit :

Wow you really do like quote wars ... -_-, you know it's annoying/hard to read, right ?

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deteego a écrit :

In 73+ maps, almost every mob that does physical damage is hard hitter, is this hard to understand? Especially with crit mechanics

We were talking about hard hits at the point where one shot would be possible for many builds, but since you probably did not read the whole thing from the start, you missed that I guess.
It all depends on what you call "hard hits".

If you have 40k armor, the ony thing you have to worry about is something like a rare skeleton collosas on a vulnerability map. As an evasion user, you have to worry about any mob that is hard hitting, with or without mods. Even with 5 endurance charges, an evasion user is going to get hit, on a minumum, by these mobs, for around 3k. Make that blue, and that gets increased. Make that blue with deadly, savage, thats even more

An armor user with 40k armor, only has to worry about something like 2% of possible content. An evasion user has to worry about something like 30-40% content. Do you understand now?

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Fruz a écrit :

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deteego a écrit :

I have yet to see someone hit 10k evasion with only 6 nodes of investment in the tree, maybe they are running completely perfect mirrored gear in every slot, but, yeah....

Let's see ... 400 dext, 3k evasion from gear, grace => 9k evasion without any %inc evasion from the tree.

Yup, and guess what, how much of your tree did you devote to evasion hmm?

Like has been said before, you can get 40k armor from just IR (lets say 6 nodes) + 2 different pots + 2 auras. So guess where all the other nodes are going to go into? Yup, either health, or damage

The fact that you have 9k evasion means jack shit, you have built your tree around getting 9k evasion. A witchcan get 20k+ armor while still having almost all of her tree specced into INT/crit/ES etc etc, and thats from the opposite side of the god damn tree. Try doing that with evasion

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Fruz a écrit :

"You don't know what you are talking about".

And actually, by playing smart, you don't really loose time and you don't die at all + you can just facetank single hard hitter bosses for example, without any downtime.

So can armour users

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Fruz a écrit :

If you don't understand the whole conversation at the point that I consider that evasion does not rely on RnG at all, I definitely suggest that you re-read the whole thing, or ... not respond.

Saying that evasion doesn't rely on RnG is like saying that glass cannons don't rely on damage. Maybe you should read this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_swan_theory

Argh, trying to avoid repeating myself in every single thread but fuck it here it goes.

The problem when I took my evasion toon to 74s and above was elemental damage. Most armor based characters I made I could get over 5k life fairly easily when trying. Evasion getting almost every life node on the dex tree I was still struggling to get to 5k. With stuff like reduce crit multi and ele adaption, they make a huge fucking difference on that elemental damage late game, because they apply to spells to. With a flask up ele adapt is almost a 13% flat DR, evasion has nothing similar to these for spells. Now with the aura increases you can boost up purity which is something evasion doesn't have enough of on it's own, forced to travel to get the added max res.

Thing is, when I threw on kaoms, I was pretty much set to 76-77s where they hit like trucks. My first experience with academy boss after release, walk in room, start charging towards boss to get leech up, before first hit I was dead. Nothing an evasion user can do against a physical spell boss.

An armor user invests minimally in armor, most just getting IR, grace and possibly determination then stack with granite and/or jade. Evasion users need good dex, generally get at least evasion/life passives along with other evasion passives, ondar's guile, acro, phase acro, and grace. It's a large passive investment just to function relatively similar to armor yet armor is simple. You know when it won't work and how to prepare for it. Evasion, there's some direct counters but generally you're going to be surprised when it doesn't work. All you need is a pack of apes running up as a pack of devourers jump out of the ground. There's no way your evasion is saving you there, too many incoming hits, no chance you'll avoid all the hard hitting ones.

But honestly, if DEX were life tanks and STR were DR tanks, balance would be good. I did the math a while back, at this time, because of STR giving life, armor users almost will always end up with more life.