The secret to balancing evasion

It's happening to players that play hard rolled high end maps, so if it is 99.9% like you say, so be it.
I'm talking about those times, where, when you get hit, you lose a whole day or two of playing 5+ hours.

It's basically a nonsense because you haven't payed attention on what I was/am referring to.

And now you're catching by a straw, that was just an example, 7k hits are even more frequent.

Devourers, Avian Wretches, Croaking Chimerals, bubble guys, rare colossal skeletons, etc.

Nope, not a regular basis, but with those monsters accounted up combined with 2+ damage mods.
Which, if you map in a manner I've said, it happens few times a day.


Flasks recharge, pretty fast.

And that flask management is purely based on your opinion/experience, however, it can be completely different.

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tinko92 a écrit :

It's happening to players that play hard rolled high end maps, so if it is 99.9% like you say, so be it.
I'm talking about those times, where, when you get hit, you lose a whole day or two of playing 5+ hours.

It's basically a nonsense because you haven't payed attention on what I was/am referring to.

And now you're catching by a straw, that was just an example, 7k hits are even more frequent.

Devourers, Avian Wretches, Croaking Chimerals, bubble guys, rare colossal skeletons, etc.

Nope, not a regular basis, but with those monsters accounted up combined with 2+ damage mods.
Which, if you map in a manner I've said, it happens few times a day.


Flasks recharge, pretty fast.

And that flask management is purely based on your opinion/experience, however, it can be completely different.

I still kinda doubt of the 10k honestly.
Now I don't usually roll such maps, especially since vulnerability is a weakness of my build coz I'm not immune to stun and I'm CI ( I'm trying to avoid it when I can ), so I'll just consider that it's "encounterable" since you say so.


Now tell me, how many of the people you know rolling such maps don't use double flask ? I definitely think that this combination is atm over-powered and expect a nerf of it at some point. Plus ... it's not completely just a ER/EV debate only anymore with this ... I mean, standard leagues cannot use this combination.
BTW, how do you use a double flask combo including a jade flask in standard ? ( because you are talking about your high level standard toon, are you not ? )

So in such maps, this flask combination + IR makes it probably better than evasion, but I still doubt about the 10k damage that you are talking about.

About those huge damage hits I'm just talking out of experience, when it's a hard map and some known hard hitting monsters are in it, I almost always pop both flasks up when encountering a larger pack.

And sometimes when I get surprised, I don't pop my flasks and get hit by 7-8k (mostly with off screen Avian Wretches).


How many people? No idea, a big majority of players are ranged so...


It's not OP, it has decent drawbacks.
IR excludes evasion bonus from dexterity and Jade flasks are "meant" to be used once. So it's a big buff for a short time.

If you're going by that logic, what about IC?


What kind of question is that? How do people have The Taming, etc. ?
I bought Jade flasks.
Not that it matters if it's standard or domination league, at least I hope so.


So that's what I'm saying, if you're going to play high level character in high end maps, you would want to take it safely, hence the amount of evasion melee builds in 95+ levels, rangers that use Voltaxic, boss skipping, etc. it's about survivability when you get up there, you can't afford to die.

Tinko, what would it take for you to use evasion?

I have my opinions which I've beat into everyone of these threads but I feel like one of the few people who have taken a pure evasion toon into 76+ maps (fuck academy boss).

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tinko92 a écrit :

If you're going by that logic, what about IC?

well IC consumes your endurance charges and is shorter, plus it needs to reserve sockets from your gear.
But I admit that IC+CwDT is somewhat broken, even after the "nerf" from CwDT.

But seriously, bumping your armour from 10k to 45k with just 2 flasks ?? what drawback, if you really have troubles recharging them ( which you don't I guess ), you can always port out/back in and it's been refilled.
I'm not saying that IR is OP, just that the combination of those 3 things together.


I forgot the fact that people dying in Nemesis were moved to standard, so yeah my bad on that, Jade flask are a possibility for standard league also from that.

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tinko92 a écrit :

And sometimes when I get surprised, I don't pop my flasks and get hit by 7-8k (mostly with off screen Avian Wretches).

Like Moosifer, I believe that an eva + MoM build would be better even there, because the additional buffer just compensate the reduced by armour below ~30k AR or so for those big hits.


And my question is relevant, because if everyone is using that combination to trivialize armour investment, that basically partly solves its biggest drawback ...

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Moosifer a écrit :

Tinko, what would it take for you to use evasion?

I have my opinions which I've beat into everyone of these threads but I feel like one of the few people who have taken a pure evasion toon into 76+ maps (fuck academy boss).

When I see videos.



@Fruz

IC with 5 charges lasts almost 10 sec with Increased Duration linked.

So why is it a problem to bump my armour that way if evasion is superior?

Well, porting out from a party mapping isn't really an option, isn't it?

What's the highest life/mana pool of MoM builds?

I don't use IC because I like neither the spell design or the visual/sound effect of it, and I didn't know that it could last that long tbh, beside simple maths would say otherwise but I'm probably missing something in the calculation.


And it is a problem because the armor's main drawback is to be less efficient against very big hits, where evasion does work this way because the strength of the hits has no impact.
In other words, AR's design is better against small hit and worse against very big hit where evasion is not better against small hits but neither worse against very big ones, but you know that already.

And there is ( imho ) a flaw if a drawback can just be trivialized, or at least easily be compensated with only 2 potions and a very small investment.

Look, the fact is, when you start doing really high level content (like you are level 95+ and are running 73+ level maps with mods), evasion does lose out from armour, and although Fruz appears to keep on arguing for the sakes of it, he actually hasn't answered the cirtical point, which is, what the hell happens when I happen to get hit 2 times in a row by hard hits

With an evasion build, you are most likely dead. With an armor build (running grace + determination + IR with granite/jade getting you 40k+ armor), you can survive that, not to mention that its much easier to get endurance charges as an armor player than an evasion player

Getting more than 10k evasion is actually very hard, there is no evasion equivalent of IR, there is no evasion equivalent of determination (which is a MORE modifier). The part of the tree that has evasion nodes has (apart from thick skin), incredibly shitty health nodes (particularly the combined evasion/life ones), so that even if you try to equate a non IR armor user with an evasion user, that armor user will have more health than the evasion user

Yes evasion can run IC + ID, so can an armor user. An armor user running this combo is higher much stronger, you will have more endurance chargers (due to the node on the left of the tree, an evasion character has to travel quite far to get this node), then there is also the obvious point of slot/color investment

For those people wondering, I do run both evasion and armor builds, and evasion is strongest in mid/mid late, but once you start hitting content where standard mob packs hit for 4-5K on a single hit, than you only need some random bad luck streak, and you will lose a day worths of time in experience.

Armor may theoretically not be as good against large hits, but practically reliability trumps all, and the best thing about armor is its reliability. If you are up against a mob of skeleton collosses, and you pop your granite/jade combo, you know exactly how much damage you can take (even in the worst case scenario, which is crit). If its too much, then you simple can spread out the packs.

With an evasion build? Well you have no real idea, 99% of the time you should be fine, but then comes a time when you get hit 2-3 times in a row, and you are dead.

And this isn't even getting into physical spells + desync, and things like 1 hit ko punctures/8 second freezes/triple shock stacks (which forces you to use flask space to deal with these problems, or uniques with weaker stats)

Note that this more of a result of the retarded way GGG scales damage (to GGG, more difficulty is equal to more damage), and this is what hits evasion users the hardest. Its just really not feasible to get an insane health buffer + insane evasion + have enough damage to be viable.

So you're saying evasion is better than armour, but armour still needs some kind of nerf?

Higher armour provides better combo with endurance charges, and thus making hard hits not so hard.
While evasion is a gamble, for which I haven't read different nor seen videos to prove otherwise.


All I've ever said negative about evasion is the insecurity in high level mapping, compared to armour. Which still stands.


EDIT @deteego
Pretty much summed my posts, although I wrote a summarized one in another thread, similar to this (points taken into account).

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deteengo a écrit :

Look, the fact is, when you start doing really high level content (like you are level 95+ and are running 73+ level maps with mods), evasion does lose out from armour, and although Fruz appears to keep on arguing for the sakes of it, he actually hasn't answered the cirtical point, which is, what the hell happens when I happen to get hit 2 times in a row by hard hits

This situation would be ... your fault.
If you try to face tank potentially many really hard hitters at the same time ( and cannot insta-leech ), that means that you are reckless and you kind of deserve to die.
But you know what ? In that case, you die for sure with armor, where evasion would have a chance to save you.

So basically, you just come here and bring completely false arguments based on false assumptions for the sake of what ?

And no, this is no "theoretically", armor is less efficient against hard hits, this is a very very obvious fact that noone with at least a basic understanding of the mechanism could deny if not being of a bad faith.

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deteego a écrit :

Its just really not feasible to get an insane health buffer + insane evasion + have enough damage to be viable.

You definitely know what you're talking about.
Getting 10k evasion is nowhere something difficult in a tank-evasion oriented build, and it does not require a large investment.

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tinko92 a écrit :

So you're saying evasion is better than armour, but armour still needs some kind of nerf?

Stop taking things out of their context to try to make a point -___-".
YES, evasion is better than armor against large hits, it doesn't mean "evasion is better than armor".

I also never said that armor needed a nerf, you are completely deforming my posts there, why ?