The secret to balancing evasion

"

Fruz a écrit :

"

allbusiness a écrit :

Try running end game evasion without block and see how far you get

I have 42% block chance, far from max block, and ... well yeah I'm mapping without dying at a nice pace.

"

allbusiness a écrit :

Also, if you're really trying to argue that evasion is more point efficient than Iron Reflexes, I'm just gonna straight say it. You're either trolling, or you're really just bad at the game.

Noone said that ...
I could say "You're either trolling, or you're really just bad at reading", see what I did there ?

I was just pointing out the fact that against big hits, armor is nothing if you don't invest quite a lot in it ( 2 auras IS a lot, plus the rest ... ), where with ~8k evasion, you already have ~50% effective evade chance in mid maps, and this will always have the same efficient, against any kind of hit.


No damage mitigation ? You can easily run 4~5 end charges if not more.
The buffer needs to be a little higher because it will matter against large hit than armor doesn't reduce much if you are not using double pots or having a heavily armoured oriented build, and even with double post, it reduces the really large dangerous hits somewhat, but far less than smaller ones.
So no, evasion doesn't need a much bigger buffer.

evasion builds cannot use CwDT ? yes they can, do you play evasion ? ... The threshold is reached easily when you get hit ( because let's face it, you get hit, even by little shits, and they can potentially reach your CwDT threshold ).
The only difference between CwDT used with evasion or armor is that it's often more efficient to choose slightly higher threshold with evasion.

LOL


CWDT is more efficient with armor because you can constantly proc Immortal Call nonstop. You're just straight trolling at this point. They had to nerf that shit because everyone would basically never die to physical damage because they were proccing IC so often.


Yeah and an armor build can run 6+ endurance charges, have maxed Immortal Call durations, along with utilizing Arctic Armor and MoM. Guess whose more efficient now at reducing damage? Not evasion. Yeah, this is all on top of having like the potential to have 100k+ armor when you're running with good gear and determination.



And I call absolute bullshit on mapping on high level maps with only 42% block. Show me a video of you steam rolling a 78 map with 42% block on a pure evasion character with a good clear speed. If you can't, I'm calling you a fucking liar. Every other evasion player that I know of says it sucks massive dick without max block late game.

If you a fantasying on never getting hit with an evasion build ( melee ) ...


You don't have such a char do you ?

Now you are supposing that someone said that evasion was competing with armor in term of damage reduction ? Man you're a pure troll or what ? Oo


I never said I was running 78 maps, my play time is not enough to reach the last layer solo.
What are you mapping with your max char being lvl 70 btw ? level 78 maps ?
lol ....


Stop fantasying/theorizing and go play the game maybe ?

Armor users can stack enough armor to have reliable DR against any boss.

Pure evasion user, even with max block, will ALWAYS struggle or die against academy boss, struggle is being generous as well.

That needs to be addressed. Either armor users need a boss that's a hard counter, like one with armor penetration rather than just higher damage (as that will affect eva and es users as well, also most likely be elemental ffs) or physical spells need to be reworked with evasion in mind rather than armor (i.e. basically removed).

"

Moosifer a écrit :

Pure evasion user, even with max block, will ALWAYS struggle or die against academy boss, struggle is being generous as well.

Yes, those bosses completely ruin evasion builds or makes their lives extra complicated, I don't think that this is a good design either.

"

Moosifer a écrit :

Armor users can stack enough armor to have reliable DR against any boss.

With double flask now, it is kinda possible, but if you don't have determination/grace ( or both ) for example, you can most-likely forget it, against some bosses, 20k armor is not enough to be reliable for example.

As I said, now, double flask somewhat solves armor"s biggest drawback/flaw, and design-wise, this is honestly dumb =/.
Not saying that people should struggle more than what they do atm, just that this is ... really not well designed to me.

"

Moosifer a écrit :

Armor users can stack enough armor to have reliable DR against any boss.

Pure evasion user, even with max block, will ALWAYS struggle or die against academy boss, struggle is being generous as well.

Something I've always wanted to test as a hp/dodge/evasion character was the conversion of physical to elemental damage and stacking damage reductions such as endurance charges and mind over matter.

Uniques like lightning jack convert 40% physical damage taken to lightning, which at 90% resist, represents a 36% damage reduction in total on a pure physical hit. Darkscorn converts 25% physical to chaos, at 75% resist, which becomes a 16.75% reduction in damage on physical hits. Mind over matter reduces all damage by 30% which can be stacked with enfeeble and 4% for each endurance charge and it stacks pretty well I think even without blocking. Lets say 80-90% physical damage reduction, 90% for each elemental reduction and 75% for chaos... before armor, mind over matter, enfeeble, flat damage reductions (like artic armor or immortal call) or damage sponges (molten shell).


And ya, the bow is sorta trashy... but it might be of value to use as a indirect attacker (trapper or totem user) to also avoid both thorns and reflect as well.


edit- also for some reason I really wanted to see what high crit rate cast on crit + EC + IC could do... not sure if it would even work though.

@Fruz - I'm not talking reasonable vs reasonable here. Focusing on armor someone could get over 100k armor, before end charges along with other defensive shit, like a 10 second IC, MoM, AA, max block or whatever. Evasion even completely min-maxed to perfection will still be at high risk against academy boss. Too many procs for spell block to grab it all and even with high leech VP, the boss moves around a lot so the moment you stop leeching it's over.

@Jiero - I was actually attempting to theorycraft something like that. The problem is to get max chaos res without CI you either need incredibly expensive jewelry or you give up a significant amount of DPS. The mana required to make EB/MoM work is pretty insane too without a shield. It could work if you have a few hundred ex to throw away on WED, life, mana, chaos, and 2 other res rings. Without thunderfists, wakes and alphahowl I don't see the damage worth the EHP. I mean even with that setup, 2 WED rings I had 4k LA. But really you can take different routes at similar costs you can have insane DPS just melting these bosses you're attempting to facetank. Same effect but DPS is more satisfying than EHP, especially if the EHP might let you down.

"

Moosifer a écrit :

Armor users can stack enough armor to have reliable DR against any boss.

Pure evasion user, even with max block, will ALWAYS struggle or die against academy boss, struggle is being generous as well.

That needs to be addressed. Either armor users need a boss that's a hard counter, like one with armor penetration rather than just higher damage (as that will affect eva and es users as well, also most likely be elemental ffs) or physical spells need to be reworked with evasion in mind rather than armor (i.e. basically removed).

I have enough HP to take 2-3 hits without leeching and I'm pure Eva with no Kaoms. ANd I leech back more than enough to face tank him and the tornadoes.

My first experience against him was a GMP map and he killed me before I reached him, I was using kaoms.

So let me change it, the hardest versions of this boss can be tanked by most/all armor users, the majority or all evasion users will die very quickly.

I definitely about physical casters mobs ... those are a pain in the a** for evasion buil.
Such mobs definitely have a place in PoE, but imho not a boss that is fully using that, it's retarded ...

"

linkstatic a écrit :

I have enough HP to take 2-3 hits without leeching and I'm pure Eva with no Kaoms. ANd I leech back more than enough to face tank him and the tornadoes.

Are you seriously facetanking academy boss without armor ??
If you 2~3 shot him you don't let him the chance to really hurt you, so that's a little different, but on a non vanilla map, I have troubles believing you tbh.

"

Moosifer a écrit :

@Jiero - I was actually attempting to theorycraft something like that. The problem is to get max chaos res without CI you either need incredibly expensive jewelry or you give up a significant amount of DPS. The mana required to make EB/MoM work is pretty insane too without a shield. It could work if you have a few hundred ex to throw away on WED, life, mana, chaos, and 2 other res rings. Without thunderfists, wakes and alphahowl I don't see the damage worth the EHP. I mean even with that setup, 2 WED rings I had 4k LA. But really you can take different routes at similar costs you can have insane DPS just melting these bosses you're attempting to facetank. Same effect but DPS is more satisfying than EHP, especially if the EHP might let you down.

I was thinking that with enough migration that armor and (maybe) evasion would be sorta needless and open up a few mod slots actually. That would mean resists, chaos resists, damage, hp and mana on ES armor (with EB) with acrobatics and phase acrobatics. Should get us about 2-2.5k mana without to much trouble, and post auras leave about 400-500 (depends on alpha howl), which is enough for a 14k hit post migration, and 500 mana for mind over matter at 95% migration is like having 7500 with 0% anyway so its not like we need to go crazy with it if we can get it high enough ( with 90-95% imagine that 14k vaal smash now only doing 490-980 damage and 210-420 mana before armor!). Heck, with enough migration we could in theory go afk with enough regen, molten shell and punishment and clear physical mobs(through it normally sucks on a single target, even with vulnerability) or a cast on damage taken lightning warping afk cheese build.

As far as damage we have stuff like iron willed molten shell, blinding skeleton totems, EKs, poison arrow, iron gripped rain of arrow, damage aura + iron grip fenzy/barrage/multishot, spell totems, traps and a few other ones that tend to be either easier to support, independent of weapon damage and/or allow us to negate reflect.


I'll have to look at it more, so far it seems that the biggest issue is getting the damage up enough so mapping isn't a entirely mind killingly boring task.




Its just that overall it seems both armor and evasion are both lacking compared to what can potentially be done with this way of just migrating damage into resists and BOTH can use a buff to make them more viable at their own niche. Mainly that while armor makes small hits harmless it does nothing vs large hits, and that evade is all or nothing that can quickly leave one dead... while percentage based reductions are always useful, actually quite powerful vs large hits, which then armor can lower as a secondary effect to a great degree.