The secret to balancing evasion

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Moosifer a écrit :

An armor user invests minimally in armor, most just getting IR, grace and possibly determination then stack with granite and/or jade. Evasion users need good dex, generally get at least evasion/life passives along with other evasion passives, ondar's guile, acro, phase acro, and grace. It's a large passive investment just to function relatively similar to armor yet armor is simple. You know when it won't work and how to prepare for it. Evasion, there's some direct counters but generally you're going to be surprised when it doesn't work. All you need is a pack of apes running up as a pack of devourers jump out of the ground. There's no way your evasion is saving you there, too many incoming hits, no chance you'll avoid all the hard hitting ones.

And this is the central point that Fruz is completely ignoring

That's what frustrated me most about evasion in general. I can ignore defense completely and still have decent armor, a granite will take me there. Without focusing on evasion it just doesn't work nearly as well. You can't just throw on a jade and notice a difference.

Yeah exactly, there is a reason why IR is so strong in races (regardless if they are long or short races), and amongst high level players in general. Getting an absurdly high amount of armor is incredibly easy (in terms of node/slot commitment) compared to evasion. You need IR + 3 slots (1 grace, 1 determination, 1 reduced mana) + 2 pots. And that combination will net you around 30k armor with really crappy armor gear (in general). Depending on your build, you can get away with less. You can for example through away grace if you get it through gear and run something else.

With evasion, on the other hand, you need to fully commit to it, on your tree. Which means a combination of less damage/health/utility

I'd be down for the required keystones (which is bullshit, it should change the build in an interesting way, not just be required, fucking OG) if there wasn't so much travel involved. OG has nothing really worth going down there for EHP wise. If you aren't using a 1h weapon or bow it's just dex. Acro is a 6 passive investment for 40% block and 30% spell block, one you can't get more of elsewhere and again, not getting damage it's in a bad place, nevermind it's hell to make your way towards involving getting a charge, 30 stat node or many dex passives to do so. And honestly, there shouldn't be a single evasion passive on the tree without life. Evasion with low life is always suicide. Armor in high enough amounts can replace life, evasion cannot.

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tinko92 a écrit :

Since you find IR combos OP, that suggests it needs a nerf, logically.

the combination, yes.
Making jade and granite flask share the same timer ( or making the higher value using IR applying and not both ) would solve that problem for example.

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tinko92 a écrit :

"Higher armour provides better combo with endurance charges, and thus making hard hits not so hard.
While evasion is a gamble"

Well end charges ( afaik ) are applied after armor reduction, so yes it has more synergy with armor, but it does not remove the fact that armor gets less efficient the bigger the hit.

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tinko92 a écrit :

And since evasion is a gamble gameplay, where I'm not 100% sure that I can survive the incoming monsters, I can't play like that, not when I can lose a whole day or two because of bad luck.
I don't know, I keep telling the same thing and I stumble upon people that claim it's not like that, and when I ask for a proof, a practical part of that, I don't get it, and we all know why.

There are situation that definitely need to be handled differently, as I said before ( especially when one knows how evasion uses entropy ).

Now, evasion alone has maybe not been designed to be used to face tank many monsters like armour has, the whole point is that ( apart from the 10k hits that you are talking about that I have never seen, but don't deny the existence ) the statement "with evasion you end up being one shot at some point" is just wrong.

But any evasion-melee mapper will tell you that bosses such as brutus-like ones are much more easier to facetank with evasion ( some leech is needed to regain life between the hits that goes through evasion of course ).

@DEteego : actually no, you don't have to worry about any hard-hitting mobs, 3k is nothing, some leech and you got it back in no time before the next hit strike ( and well, not clearling the weak soft hitting mobs is a mistake, and is not difficult to do ).

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deteego a écrit :

Yup, and guess what, how much of your tree did you devote to evasion hmm?

wow ... cannot you read the very post you just quoted ? Oo
"without any %inc evasion from the tree" = that basically means 0 ( without => 0 ).
That is ridiculous lol, even from you.

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deteego a écrit :

So can armour users

try facetanking colonade brutus indefinitely, I can easily leech back his damage, I doubt that you can do the same with armor.


Man idk ... It looks like you don't understand english :/.
I'm stopping talking to you here because I dislike speaking to people that don't understand the same language that I speak or are just ignoring words, idk.

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Fruz a écrit :

Well end charges ( afaik ) are applied after armor reduction, so yes it has more synergy with armor, but it does not remove the fact that armor gets less efficient the bigger the hit.

Same time, charge DR is just additive with your armor DR.

@Moosifer : if you stay only in the dext part of the tree, then yes, you lack elemental adaptation and probably some health ( can be compensated by MoM somewhat now ).
Evasion build does not means that you cannot grab part of the str tree, it can be done to optimize health quite efficiently. It doesn't mean that the lack of life from the dext tree isn't a problem of course.
Grace is a bonus, you don't need it to have a significant evasion value to be honest.

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Moosifer a écrit :

Same time, charge DR is just additive with your armor DR

yes, but the DR calculated from armor ignores this, it would change a lot of things if the formula would take the reduced hit from end charges.

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deteego a écrit :

With evasion, on the other hand, you need to fully commit to it, on your tree. Which means a combination of less damage/health/utility

you have definitely no idea of what you are talking about, at all lol.

Moosifer and Tinko92 have valid points, played the game, you ....

I would love to throw MoM in here but acro ruins it. So for a traditional evasion build, one getting acro, MoM isn't easily done, at least no where near as effectively.

My current CoC build is spoiling me. I want to make a new build using cloak of defiance but I can't find anything that has "good dps."

Invalesco seems to have a great success with his FP shadow : http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/710629

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Fruz a écrit :

the combination, yes.
Making jade and granite flask share the same timer ( or making the higher value using IR applying and not both ) would solve that problem for example.

How would that solve problem? Isn't melee survivability shit now anyway?

I mainly use double flask combo vs. non-boss monsters in prevention of desync, the other times is when map mods are synergized well with certain monsters in the map.

So, lets say you play only vanilla 77-78 maps, you'll have a horrible time getting out of desync alive.

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There are situation that definitely need to be handled differently, as I said before ( especially when one knows how evasion uses entropy ).

Now, evasion alone has maybe not been designed to be used to face tank many monsters like armour has, the whole point is that ( apart from the 10k hits that you are talking about that I have never seen, but don't deny the existence ) the statement "with evasion you end up being one shot at some point" is just wrong.

But any evasion-melee mapper will tell you that bosses such as brutus-like ones are much more easier to facetank with evasion ( some leech is needed to regain life between the hits that goes through evasion of course ).

You don't have to facetank monsters, ranged physical attacks are even more dangerous.

You see, that 10k example is by a far margin sufficient to end life of an evasion build if it passes, 7k hits aren't that rare at all, so when you have ~8-9 monsters hitting you, if the hits land fast enough, it doesn't have to take a 8k hit to one shot you, 2-3 hits and you're gone.
It's all about the combinations of incoming hits, which makes that a gamble.

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@DEteego : actually no, you don't have to worry about any hard-hitting mobs, 3k is nothing, some leech and you got it back in no time before the next hit strike ( and well, not clearling the weak soft hitting mobs is a mistake, and is not difficult to do ).

try facetanking colonade brutus indefinitely, I can easily leech back his damage, I doubt that you can do the same with armor.

3k is indeed nothing, but see the example above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J87VTlTc-PI

See, making them look like idiots.