Its time for fortify+movement skill to die

"

k1rage a écrit :

Why use MoM when you can use MoM+fority

seriously the damage is so spiky that as a HC player I feel the need to grab all the D i can

now if the re-tuned damage a little maybe

"

goetzjam a écrit :

"

k1rage a écrit :

Why use MoM when you can use MoM+fority

seriously the damage is so spiky that as a HC player I feel the need to grab all the D i can

now if the re-tuned damage a little maybe

:) the underline part


The point is that you as a caster have other options you could do that are ranged if your so scared of something, but most stuff is telegraphed and avoidable, you have MOM, but a cyclone raider has fortify and no MOM, making the caster tankier then the melee? That isn't logical in so many ways.

"

k1rage a écrit :

"

goetzjam a écrit :

"

k1rage a écrit :

Why use MoM when you can use MoM+fority

seriously the damage is so spiky that as a HC player I feel the need to grab all the D i can

now if the re-tuned damage a little maybe

:) the underline part


The point is that you as a caster have other options you could do that are ranged if your so scared of something, but most stuff is telegraphed and avoidable, you have MOM, but a cyclone raider has fortify and no MOM, making the caster tankier then the melee? That isn't logical in so many ways.

well I find with PoE you have to throw traditional logic out the window

Sure in most games the caster/wizard guy if sqishy

but those games are not PoE


removing fortify from move skills is just a straight survivability nerf to everyone

"

k1rage a écrit :

but you end up nerfing melee as well if you kill fort+move skill

so it really fails to help melee

if they do indeed do this they will really have to address damage spikiness

"

goetzjam a écrit :

"

k1rage a écrit :

but you end up nerfing melee as well if you kill fort+move skill

so it really fails to help melee

if they do indeed do this they will really have to address damage spikiness

Its not a nerf to melee its an adjustment. If you give fortify a lessor more multiplier, instead of the mediocre increased damage it does now people will have no problem using it in their main links, especially if you know you can't get it with your mobility skill anymore.


You seem to be completely missing the point of the whole thread.

"

k1rage a écrit :

you could give it a more multi but I still think casters would find a way to use it even if you took it away from move skills

I just think you are making a problem where there is none

"

goetzjam a écrit :

"

Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

I'm coming around to this idea, but it is a bit complicated.

Shield Charge does have a somewhat unique aspect where it gains a higher chance to stun at max range. Maybe a jewel has potential to fix that.

Leap Slam has in the past been used for (janky) damage and it still has just barely enough potential that uberpowered builds can make it work. It's also got the inbuilt knockback chance, for whatever that's worth anymore.

Taking the buff away on using a spell seems counter to trying to use spells for utility. PCoC Orb of Storms comes to mind.

I still need to think more on this, but not tonight.

Its only complicated if you think it is. Its actually quite simple of a change when you think about it.


Shield charge could be viable as a main melee skill, it was in the past and with some scaling you can make it possible now. The solution to this would be to introduce some sort of a threshold jewel that made it viable as a main skill, while having drawbacks for spell, summoner and support builds. However, ultimately I think its worth the death of a niche skill, if we are talking about the overall balance of the game.


I don't really see people using leap slam for damage, in 2.0 it was nerfed, in races (which arent really a thing anymore) you can see some people use it, but in that case they arent using fortify, as they want as many damage gems as they can get (well they need it)


Its too difficult IMO to just make it based on any spell useage, what about builds that don't use spells, or maybe they do, but then they just use a low level ball lightning for curse and shield charge again to get the buff.


I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on it.

"

Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

True, the change itself would be simple, but the effects on other stuff might not be so cut and dry. Like snipping a hole in the center of a spider web. But hey, maybe you want that spider web gone?

I didn't have much time to get my thoughts in order last night since it was before bed, but I'll see what I can do today.

Starting with replies to your points though:

Shield Charge could certainly stand to not be seen as viable for damage. Or if it is viable for damage then its utility as mobility needs to be brought down. So a jewel that essentially turned it into Shield Bash would work.

Yeah, Leap Slam hasn't truly been used for damage for quite some time. The setup I'm remembering killed Guardian of the Phoenix Maybe this one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC_yu2Iubr0 But the one I remember specifically used it to kill Phoenix and not just for clearing... Eh, can't find it after 10 minutes of searching so oh well. Thought it was an Inquisitor though.

Anyway, you're right that they don't use Fortify on a Leap Slam setup since they need the damage which Fortify doesn't grant.

I'll admit that I do use Fortify on my Leap Slam though. It's my kinda blah Pillar Juggernaut so it's nothing that really screams "OMG nerf it!" And I do have a backup Vigilant Strike anyway in case I don't want to bother with the longer time to Leap to a close enemy.

Yeah, if Fortify cut off after using spells even for utility then that just doesn't feel good. Plus some spells are effectively melee anyway.


So if we go to my Pillar Juggernaut, the "optimum" thing to do is mainly keep flasks up, Leap Slam between packs, then Sunder until the pack is dead and continue on. The extra gem link on my Leap Slam isn't much of an investment but it's a major help in surviving.

I suppose that goes into "If Fortify + fast movement skill is too powerful, is it too powerful for everyone or is it only certain builds?" Coming from the standpoint that the game is probably too fast right now at its top end, Fortify + fast movement skill is likely too powerful for everyone if Fortify's values stay the same.

So if we cut Fortify + fast movement skill, what happens? People will switch to the longest-range melee skills to put it up which are Sunder and Frost Blades, Frost Blades being the faster and more weapon-versatile one so more likely. So if the player wants the buff then they need to stop for a split second to hit it and then move on, which accomplishes the intention of slowing the character down and/or forcing the player to make a choice between riskier and faster or safer and slower, if only by a fraction of a second.

I could certainly live with that and it seems like it'd be better for the game.

A compromise might be "Fortify has 50% Less effectiveness when used with movement skills."

"

Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

I suppose that goes into "If Fortify + fast movement skill is too powerful, is it too powerful for everyone or is it only certain builds?" Coming from the standpoint that the game is probably too fast right now at its top end, Fortify + fast movement skill is likely too powerful for everyone if Fortify's values stay the same.

So if we cut Fortify + fast movement skill, what happens? People will switch to the longest-range melee skills to put it up which are Sunder and Frost Blades, Frost Blades being the faster and more weapon-versatile one so more likely. So if the player wants the buff then they need to stop for a split second to hit it and then move on, which accomplishes the intention of slowing the character down and/or forcing the player to make a choice between riskier and faster or safer and slower, if only by a fraction of a second.

I could certainly live with that and it seems like it'd be better for the game.

A compromise might be "Fortify has 50% Less effectiveness when used with movement skills."

"

And if we're at this point, in discussing further "improvements", Fortify should have some additional "benefits" for hitting an enemy in a radius of 16 around the character.

"

As Fortify should not help characters that move via movement skills, let's keep it helpful for melee as in close proximity attacks, heck, even spells if they respect range requirements - as all various forms of attack, be them attacks, projectiles or spells, if they require you to "hit" your enemy in a 16 radius should be "de facto melee"...