Its time for fortify+movement skill to die

Keep everything as is and have fortify only apply when using linked skills and are near enemies? If you leave the "near enemies" status you lose the buff.

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Jackalope_Gaming a écrit :

I'm coming around to this idea, but it is a bit complicated.

Shield Charge does have a somewhat unique aspect where it gains a higher chance to stun at max range. Maybe a jewel has potential to fix that.

Leap Slam has in the past been used for (janky) damage and it still has just barely enough potential that uberpowered builds can make it work. It's also got the inbuilt knockback chance, for whatever that's worth anymore.

Taking the buff away on using a spell seems counter to trying to use spells for utility. PCoC Orb of Storms comes to mind.

I still need to think more on this, but not tonight.

Its only complicated if you think it is. Its actually quite simple of a change when you think about it.


Shield charge could be viable as a main melee skill, it was in the past and with some scaling you can make it possible now. The solution to this would be to introduce some sort of a threshold jewel that made it viable as a main skill, while having drawbacks for spell, summoner and support builds. However, ultimately I think its worth the death of a niche skill, if we are talking about the overall balance of the game.


I don't really see people using leap slam for damage, in 2.0 it was nerfed, in races (which arent really a thing anymore) you can see some people use it, but in that case they arent using fortify, as they want as many damage gems as they can get (well they need it)


Its too difficult IMO to just make it based on any spell useage, what about builds that don't use spells, or maybe they do, but then they just use a low level ball lightning for curse and shield charge again to get the buff.


I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on it.

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If they remove fortify from movement skills wouldn't that me pure phys builds would lose a damage gem in their main 6 link? (assuming you would have to put it on your main six link since it would be disabled for movement skills?).

If they remove it from working with movement skills make it a more multiplier so melee doesn't suffer too much.

Yes they probably would. My suggestion would be for it to be a 10-19% more multiplier, so less then most melee gems, but enough to feel like they would be ok with the tradeoff.

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Honestly, my bigger gripe with current implementation is that it requires you to use attacks. Not all melee characters are attack characters. There are spells that are melee in nature.

Honestly, Fortify should work the way some of the Pantheon stuff works. If there are enemies nearby (close range), it gives you the bonus. Maybe even scaled with how many enemies there are, or what type. If there are no enemies, no Fortify is applied to you. This way you can't just slam one worm with shield charge and enjoy a ranged Fortify for ~4 seconds.

But if we want to stay in current (broken, imo) implementation, I can't quite understand why counterattacks can't apply Fortify...
I mean, it is already WAY too easy for casters to get it - why make it hard for characters that are intended to use it?

This is hard, because to some extent you are right, but ultimately the biggest difference is scaling.


Making it so it works like pantheons would be a mistake IMO, because melee must close the gap and that is why the buff duration works for an OK amount. Imagine those Vaal Constructs (I think the small ranged thing) shooting at you as you move around the corner and you dont have fortify because you arent close enough yet.


I think it was in the 2.0 closed beta feedback forums regarding the counter attack, but I believe the idea is that it would be "too easy" for people to get that buff that way. Here we are years down the road with movement skills granting fortify "too easily", so its time to reconsider.

That being said it working on counter strike would still provide some issues I think in terms of balance, so I think its best if it worked with neither.



While I agree that close ranged spell casters must put themselves at greater risk then ranged ones, they still fundamentally are different then melee builds.

They added the new support gem that can be used with channeling skills, that is sort of like fortify, but it doesn't solve the issue for skills like BV, but I think the scaling of BV sort of solves the issues by being quite decent in terms of damage.

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Keep everything as is and have fortify only apply when using linked skills and are near enemies? If you leave the "near enemies" status you lose the buff.

Refer to the explanation on why that isn't that good of a solution above.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Making it so it works like pantheons would be a mistake IMO, because melee must close the gap and that is why the buff duration works for an OK amount. Imagine those Vaal Constructs (I think the small ranged thing) shooting at you as you move around the corner and you dont have fortify because you arent close enough yet.

For this issue, how about a keystone that grants permanent fortify at the expense of dealing less damage to enemies outside of melee range? And it makes other sources of fortify buff your melee damage so they aren't rendered obsolete?

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PoofySleeves a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

Making it so it works like pantheons would be a mistake IMO, because melee must close the gap and that is why the buff duration works for an OK amount. Imagine those Vaal Constructs (I think the small ranged thing) shooting at you as you move around the corner and you dont have fortify because you arent close enough yet.

For this issue, how about a keystone that grants permanent fortify at the expense of dealing less damage to enemies outside of melee range? And it makes other sources of fortify buff your melee damage so they aren't rendered obsolete?

But why would it need to be a keystone for this, why can't the fortify buff just work like it does now, just not with movement skills.

I'm not trying to create more problems that need solved by fixing the problem, I rather just fix the problem.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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PoofySleeves a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

Making it so it works like pantheons would be a mistake IMO, because melee must close the gap and that is why the buff duration works for an OK amount. Imagine those Vaal Constructs (I think the small ranged thing) shooting at you as you move around the corner and you dont have fortify because you arent close enough yet.

For this issue, how about a keystone that grants permanent fortify at the expense of dealing less damage to enemies outside of melee range? And it makes other sources of fortify buff your melee damage so they aren't rendered obsolete?

But why would it need to be a keystone for this, why can't the fortify buff just work like it does now, just not with movement skills.

I'm not trying to create more problems that need solved by fixing the problem, I rather just fix the problem.

mostly because people like their fortify and ironically casters often need it the most

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k1rage a écrit :

mostly because people like their fortify and ironically casters often need it the most

Casters should have defenses the work with them, better then they work with melee. Like you know MOM and stuff like that.

They don't need fortify they had no such options before 2.0, it wasn't until desync was fixed and fortify was left to work with any melee ability (except counter attacks) that they got access to this layer of defenses.

The spell casters that probably need the best form of mitigation in terms of a gem is channeling builds, and they got that this very patch with storm barrier.


Casters in this game are to the point where they don't even need damage on a weapon in order to shit on most content, but your telling me they need this melee intended defense to be easily accessible to them because of some reason you haven't actually listed yet....

agree its stupid every witch running around with daggers just because fortify when great wands and staffs in game

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Aim_Deep a écrit :

agree its stupid every witch running around with daggers just because fortify when great wands and staffs in game

Well staffs are basically dead regardless of this interaction, however no one is going to use a 4 link lightning warp setup, when they can use a 3 link melee setup with fortify and faster attacks and actually have greater mobility and better defense from it.


Only thing staffs had left for them was a second 6 link or a 6 link and use kaom's heart, now that players have access to elder\shaper items that can provide even more links then a staff basically can, really all that is left is +3, but summoners can get +3 on helm now and very few builds actually need the levels as much as links could possibly do as well.

However, wands do greatly suffer from this issue.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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Aim_Deep a écrit :

agree its stupid every witch running around with daggers just because fortify when great wands and staffs in game

Well staffs are basically dead regardless of this interaction, however no one is going to use a 4 link lightning warp setup, when they can use a 3 link melee setup with fortify and faster attacks and actually have greater mobility and better defense from it.


Only thing staffs had left for them was a second 6 link or a 6 link and use kaom's heart, now that players have access to elder\shaper items that can provide even more links then a staff basically can, really all that is left is +3, but summoners can get +3 on helm now and very few builds actually need the levels as much as links could possibly do as well.

However, wands do greatly suffer from this issue.

Well you can still get 4000+ non guardian mana with PoH and run a hell of a Mom defense system and if fortify wasn't there I think you'd see it more if fortify wasnt there. I used this with Flame surge in chest and ice nova in PoH and did everything. Problem is fortify is better and does more DPS with dagger(s) so no one does. You can also get 75% block/Spell block with the Martyr and some reckless defenses but again it's less DPS so no one does it

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goetzjam a écrit :

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k1rage a écrit :

mostly because people like their fortify and ironically casters often need it the most

Casters should have defenses the work with them, better then they work with melee. Like you know MOM and stuff like that.

They don't need fortify they had no such options before 2.0, it wasn't until desync was fixed and fortify was left to work with any melee ability (except counter attacks) that they got access to this layer of defenses.

The spell casters that probably need the best form of mitigation in terms of a gem is channeling builds, and they got that this very patch with storm barrier.


Casters in this game are to the point where they don't even need damage on a weapon in order to shit on most content, but your telling me they need this melee intended defense to be easily accessible to them because of some reason you haven't actually listed yet....

Why use MoM when you can use MoM+fority

seriously the damage is so spiky that as a HC player I feel the need to grab all the D i can

now if the re-tuned damage a little maybe