Its time for fortify+movement skill to die

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The_Scourge a écrit :

Actually I think the solution might be simple. Restrict support gems to certain weapon types. For example, Fortify no longer working on daggers, with daggers being a very viable caster alternative? Bam, solved. WB+Fortify still works for claws and one handed swords, neither of which are really considered as viable for casters as daggers.

COCS, in contrast, could have easily been a wand-only support. And that way Cast On Melee Crit could have been its own thing, balanced completely separately to COCS. And so on. Basically COCS was and is too flexible for one support. Great idea, way too easily broken.

I suspect there is no existing architecture for this (supports are limited only by active skill gems) but I think it would solve a lot of problems. And for those support gems that are harmless, just don't list any weapon restrictions at all.

And yeah, this brings us much closer to the more traditional 'defined class roles' model rather than the 'do whatever the fuck you want on any character' style of existing PoE, but no cookies for anyone who can tell me which is easier to balance.

+mastercraft critmulti and/or attackspeed= spell sword/claw

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Pyrokar a écrit :

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The_Scourge a écrit :

Actually I think the solution might be simple. Restrict support gems to certain weapon types. For example, Fortify no longer working on daggers, with daggers being a very viable caster alternative? Bam, solved. WB+Fortify still works for claws and one handed swords, neither of which are really considered as viable for casters as daggers.

COCS, in contrast, could have easily been a wand-only support. And that way Cast On Melee Crit could have been its own thing, balanced completely separately to COCS. And so on. Basically COCS was and is too flexible for one support. Great idea, way too easily broken.

I suspect there is no existing architecture for this (supports are limited only by active skill gems) but I think it would solve a lot of problems. And for those support gems that are harmless, just don't list any weapon restrictions at all.

And yeah, this brings us much closer to the more traditional 'defined class roles' model rather than the 'do whatever the fuck you want on any character' style of existing PoE, but no cookies for anyone who can tell me which is easier to balance.

+mastercraft critmulti and/or attackspeed= spell sword/claw

Well, you could argue that, but the counter argument still remains that even when going that spell sword/claw you will have to forfeit all the "goodies" regarding T0-1 mods like Crit chance for spells, increased cast speed etc., or at least you have to actually invest in such a multi modded item...

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sofocle10000 a écrit :

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Pyrokar a écrit :

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The_Scourge a écrit :

Actually I think the solution might be simple. Restrict support gems to certain weapon types. For example, Fortify no longer working on daggers, with daggers being a very viable caster alternative? Bam, solved. WB+Fortify still works for claws and one handed swords, neither of which are really considered as viable for casters as daggers.

COCS, in contrast, could have easily been a wand-only support. And that way Cast On Melee Crit could have been its own thing, balanced completely separately to COCS. And so on. Basically COCS was and is too flexible for one support. Great idea, way too easily broken.

I suspect there is no existing architecture for this (supports are limited only by active skill gems) but I think it would solve a lot of problems. And for those support gems that are harmless, just don't list any weapon restrictions at all.

And yeah, this brings us much closer to the more traditional 'defined class roles' model rather than the 'do whatever the fuck you want on any character' style of existing PoE, but no cookies for anyone who can tell me which is easier to balance.

+mastercraft critmulti and/or attackspeed= spell sword/claw

Well, you could argue that, but the counter argument still remains that even when going that spell sword/claw you will have to forfeit all the "goodies" regarding T0-1 mods like Crit chance for spells, increased cast speed etc., or at least you have to actually invest in such a multi modded item...

These don't matter because people are using bright beak instead.

You can't limit it by weapon class, it must be restricted by not working with pure movement skills.


GGG probably couldn't predict how good melee movement skills would be after the change to desync, however its been well over a years since they've admitted that movement skills are out of control and they have done basically nothing.


My solution is rather simple to implement, only largely impacts builds that werent suppose to have fortify in the first place and doesn't stop anyone from speed clearing a map in 30 seconds. Would it upset people, maybe, but slapping a support gem in your mobility skill isn't investment, so no reward should be possible.


Also, its not as if I'm not suggesting them to "nerf" my builds. My spec throw character uses fortify on both WB\leap slam, WB is smoother for spamming, but leap slam is good for climbing up cliffs and stuff.


My support build has fortify on his shield charge. Soon he won't have 19k es anymore (I guess). I'm limited on the sockets I have for him, so it will likely be fortify swapping out for vigilant strike to get the buff.


Hell even my miner uses fortify. All of my current characters in the league use fortify, so really whats the fucking point of having it when its implemented like this? All it really is doing is forcing GGG to implement a bunch of DOT stuff that fortify doesn't do shit against.

@sofocle10000 Is it a good enough solution? Tbh i don't care. Game has come to a point where having fortify or not doesn't really matter anymore.

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goetzjam a écrit :

These don't matter because people are using bright beak instead.

You can't limit it by weapon class, it must be restricted by not working with pure movement skills.


GGG probably couldn't predict how good melee movement skills would be after the change to desync, however its been well over a years since they've admitted that movement skills are out of control and they have done basically nothing.


My solution is rather simple to implement, only largely impacts builds that werent suppose to have fortify in the first place and doesn't stop anyone from speed clearing a map in 30 seconds. Would it upset people, maybe, but slapping a support gem in your mobility skill isn't investment, so no reward should be possible.


Also, its not as if I'm not suggesting them to "nerf" my builds. My spec throw character uses fortify on both WB\leap slam, WB is smoother for spamming, but leap slam is good for climbing up cliffs and stuff.


My support build has fortify on his shield charge. Soon he won't have 19k es anymore (I guess). I'm limited on the sockets I have for him, so it will likely be fortify swapping out for vigilant strike to get the buff.


Hell even my miner uses fortify. All of my current characters in the league use fortify, so really whats the fucking point of having it when its implemented like this? All it really is doing is forcing GGG to implement a bunch of DOT stuff that fortify doesn't do shit against.

The simplest solution might require further reworks down the road, and if they already are addressing such a problem, it would be more optimal to actually rework Fortify in a way that will never have further unintended consequences.

As I said, the buff effect and duration should really be related to how you're obtaining it, and your actions post obtaining it.

If they keep the current interaction, the least they can do is making movement skills not "mindlessly spamable" as it really gets out of hand regarding "balance"...

And as I explained a few comments ago, when you Leapslam into a pack and stay in their midst to kill them, you should undoubtedly have the Fortify buff, but when you Leapslam an enemy and you further Leapslam away, the buff should be non-existent.

Requiring to continuously hit an enemy in a 16 radius would actually make sense as it places the character in "harms way".

So yes, I would love a thorough solution that has a more "permanent" status regarding the said Fortify + movement skill interaction.

If casters had another "enticing" option, like MOM and it's impact was more direct instead of "over time", you might convince them via all those other limitations that Fortify "just isn't for them", except when hitting a close proximity enemy.

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Pyrokar a écrit :

@sofocle10000 Is it a good enough solution? Tbh i don't care. Game has come to a point where having fortify or not doesn't really matter anymore.

It always matters for direct hits if you have Fortify or not. The problem resides in having Fortify when you're out of "harms way" and you don't benefit directly from said buff.

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sofocle10000 a écrit :

The simplest solution might require further reworks down the road, and if they already are addressing such a problem, it would be more optimal to actually rework Fortify in a way that will never have further unintended consequences.

I very much doubt that. They admitted to movement skills being out of control a year ago and they've done nothing. So "maybe" they have something else planned, but I feel like we have given them enough time where they can figure it out and come back with it AFTER they fix the crisis at hand first.


Furthermore, you can't really sit here thinking that your "rework" won't have any unintended consequences either. We know for a fact what the consequences of fortify from movement skills will have, people will either not have the buff or only have the buff if they specifically go out of their way to get it.


This 1\2 ass argument about melee spells is shit, as a spell caster you chose to go BV instead of bladefall, you choose to go close ranged spells when there are longer ranged spells available. So I'm quite sick of hearing about how spell casters have it so rough.

I've been saying since the introduction of Fortify that GGG dropped the ball. If they wanted to boost the survivability of melee characters, they should have build the effect into melee skills. Dual Strike has built in Fortify. Infernal Blow has built in Fortify. Wild Strike has built in Fortify. Ranged skills like Arc, Essence Drain, Spark, Sunder, and Frost Blades don't.

Right now, ranged builds have Fortify up almost as easily as melee builds, with the big difference being a lack of accuracy or RT.

Like many systems, Fortify needs a fundamental rework that I don't expect it to ever get. Instead we'll get more batches of new content that's neat and could be refined into amazingness, but will instead languish just like everything else GGG has released.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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sofocle10000 a écrit :

The simplest solution might require further reworks down the road, and if they already are addressing such a problem, it would be more optimal to actually rework Fortify in a way that will never have further unintended consequences.

I very much doubt that. They admitted to movement skills being out of control a year ago and they've done nothing. So "maybe" they have something else planned, but I feel like we have given them enough time where they can figure it out and come back with it AFTER they fix the crisis at hand first.


Furthermore, you can't really sit here thinking that your "rework" won't have any unintended consequences either. We know for a fact what the consequences of fortify from movement skills will have, people will either not have the buff or only have the buff if they specifically go out of their way to get it.


This 1\2 ass argument about melee spells is shit, as a spell caster you chose to go BV instead of bladefall, you choose to go close ranged spells when there are longer ranged spells available. So I'm quite sick of hearing about how spell casters have it so rough.

Well, your point of view is solely centered on what you see as the solution, which is one possibility that I find lacking.

There is no "1/2 ass" argument regarding "melee spells", and if I'll ever play a spell caster, you can bet anything that I'll personally choose to fight in the melee radius, because I feel a lot more comfortable with that playstyle.

Spell casters are not having it "rough", but ANY small radius melee players do have it very rough instead.

So yes, I would like to have GGG focused on Fortify as a specific buff concerning those players that do get into said melee range, and keep the fight there. And it makes sense to see such a melee player, be him attack or cast based, wanting to "bridge the gap" between him and the enemies, and taking the fight "to them", which is when he get's the buff. Now, if GGG adds a common sense condition, to continuously hit said enemy to "keep the buff", as you'll have a large chance to get hit at your own turn is logical.

Will they do it? That is the million dollar question instead.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Yes they probably would. My suggestion would be for it to be a 10-19% more multiplier, so less then most melee gems, but enough to feel like they would be ok with the tradeoff.

too harsh I think, why have a tradeoff? Do they want to give melee fortify or not? Cause if its anything short of like 30% Im never using it, I doubt a lot of people would. Honestly if it were me Id give it

"36% more melee damage while you have fortify"
"Grants fortify on melee hit against nearby enemies"
"Cannot support mobility skills"

even 30% is a bit stingy tbh, but it would need that at a minimum imo.

Honestly if they did this it would solve the entire gem and a whole host of problems with moveskills and the knock on effect of caster weapon balance which bleeds into item usage, unique caster items being trash because u cant shield charge with them, so much knock on bullshit from the way fortify is playing out.





theres other issues with moveskills, why do I need to 4 link lightning warp and get a hat enchant just to make it 70% as good as shield charge? Wtf is up with that? they need to stop gems like faster attacks and faster casting, certainly duration gems from working with moveskills, have them only scale with on board weapon attack/cast speed suffixes and passive tree attack/cast speed, and scale big time with them. People not building attack speed on the tree should have unplayably miserable whirling and shield charge, people with no cast speed on the tree should have crap lightning warps. Stop all this completely unnecessary gem taxation on moveskills and get the right people using the right ones. high end shield charging and whirling is out of control, its too fast, 54% attack speed gems are not helping and that a caster can use that gem and get around not having attack speed on tree is silly. thats why void batteries are worth fuck all, ggg cant add good unique wands, no ones gonna use them because of this ridiculous situation.

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The_Scourge a écrit :

...

u were against the implimentation right from the start charan, I was actually in the camp feeling like it was decent, it was a good way to do it. You were right and I was wrong, so wrong, its played out in some awful ways and by this stage I feel like its so obvious something needs done its kind of painful to still be seeing it and GGG not taking action.

I had made this post on this thread about fortify, which i really think is the best thing to do with it. The suggestion builds on the idea that the buff is removed from movement skills and is inherent in melee attacks, but instead of being a static flat buff, to have the potential to be weaker or much stronger than it currently is, scaling out of your defenses (Armour and Evasion). This way characters who build into defenses (which currently are lacking to say at least) will get far more out of it.

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astraph a écrit :

The best thing to do with the fortify BUFF to help those that should be helping, meaning tanky melee characters, would be to make it scale of you Armour and Evasion. More detailed:

1) Remove it from movement skills altogether

2) Remove the gem

3) Make it inherent in melee skills and make it work like this:

a) While you start attacking it would give you an instant buff calculated like that:

- Amount of total Armour + evasion /1000 * 0.75 and that's your instant damage reduction with a hard cap of 30%. Meaning if your combined Evasion and Armour is 30K you will get an instant of 22.5% damage reduction. Essentially with combined armour and evasion of 40K you reach the cap.

- Then while you are attacking STATIONARY, you get an additional /1000 * 0.10 of your total armour + evasion for every second up to 5 second max, making essentially up to an additional /1000 * 0.5 of your total amount of armour and evasion, making it worth while to invest even further than 40K AR/EVA, and worth while to stack Ar/Eva flasks instead of just DPS ones.

So again if you have 30K of Armour and Evasion total you will get 22.5% instant reduction while you are attacking with the potential of getting an additional 3% every second you are attacking stationary with a cap at 5 seconds meaning 15%. The total if you are attacking stationary with 30K defenses would be 37.5% reduction.

This way it will really help melee characters that invest in defenses, particularly Armour and Evasion which are shit, and not casters, ranged characters or DPS oriented melee users with stat sticks.

This is seriously the best change i can think of.