Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

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please read my definition and example of "advantage given equal baseline terms", goetzjam.
2 people who have a slow computer and unable to run several clients at a time.
2 people who can't be bothered to create "dummy emails" for alternate accounts.
2 people who have the same - maximum - amount of mules ....
2 people who ...

So if me in this alt universe spends 5k on a computer to run 2 clients and you spend $500 on a potato computer then I am p2w, just not through the game's market? That's like saying if I show up to drag race in my Ferrari and you show up in a van.

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if one of these 2 people buys a stash tab - that's an advantage over the other.
both in theory and practice. given equal baseline terms.

Actually this simply isn't true as you haven't stated why or if the player even USES the stash tabs. You haven't even attempted to explain how stash tab space or storing additional gear is even beneficial for most players.

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advantage, is fact.

"a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position" that is the definition of advantage. If you really want to be technically then why not reverse the situation, lets say I buy 1 tab and you create another account with 4 new stash tabs, then the player that pays money isn't technically at an advantage anymore is he?

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if - as Quixote mentioned - you assume competition/striving to reach some goal before others do - the answer is, in my opinion, a definite "yes".
because in competition every advantage counts, and Tabs are an advantage bought with money paid to GGG.

That same advantage can be said for people that have a better computer, better build, create more accounts, are better traders, have the ability to price items. Simply too many factors to simply say buying stash tabs = advantage, especially considering people may never use them and therefore never gain anything from them.

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assuming no competition, is a trickier question.
you have an advantage that's paid for, but you are in essence not using that advantage to 1-up someone else. therefore here I'm more inclined to the "pay for convenience" term provided.
tabs aren't that ridiculous boss-one-shotting sword you buy at the Korean MMO, that's for sure.

It actually isn't a tricky question, if there is nothing to win, then it isn't by definition p2w no matter what opinion you have. If you aren't competing you aren't losing\winning. As far as pay for convenience I have yet to see anyone show data that someone with 10 stash tabs will ALWAYS be more successful then someone with 4, again it goes into so many other factors.

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be that as it may, there's no denying Stash Tabs stand out among all other MTX.
shiny weapons, cool decorations and cute pets, grant no advantages

They stand out because people like to horde items, it is after all an ARPG game. As for cool decorations and pets i've gotten pmed about my cosmetics in the past that have lead to conversations and therefore mapping groups and friends, while this isn't always the case it certainly can apply.

No one has answered the question mentioned before about additional character slots.

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goetzjam a écrit :

So if me in this alt universe spends 5k on a computer to run 2 clients and you spend $500 on a potato computer then I am p2w, just not through the game's market? That's like saying if I show up to drag race in my Ferrari and you show up in a van.

you didn't get it.

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Actually this simply isn't true as you haven't stated why or if the player even USES the stash tabs. You haven't even attempted to explain how stash tab space or storing additional gear is even beneficial for most players.

seriously?

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lets say I buy 1 tab and you create another account with 4 new stash tabs, then the player that pays money isn't technically at an advantage anymore is he?

still didn't get it.

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That same advantage can be said for people that have a better computer, better build, create more accounts, are better traders, have the ability to price items. Simply too many factors to simply say buying stash tabs = advantage, especially considering people may never use them and therefore never gain anything from them.

ok you're not even trying to get my point.
read my examples again. this time trying to remember the "equal baseline terms" part.

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I have yet to see anyone show data that someone with 10 stash tabs will ALWAYS be more successful then someone with 4, again it goes into so many other factors.

those extra 6 stash tabs mean something in competition, but not necessarily in non-competition.
that's what I'm claiming in the "advanced" part of the discussion.
you're not ready for the "advanced" part yet.

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ok you're not even trying to get my point.
read my examples again. this time trying to remember the "equal baseline terms" part.

Ok so we have to follow your specific examples and formulas in order to understand your interpretation of P2W. I mean an orange can look like an apple if you paint it red, doesn't mean its an apple though.

You want us to follow this information, which is in no case true or absolute in order to interpret your definition:



In this case you are wanting us to completely forget the fact that outside of these parameters that you set there are ways to achieve what players are paying for, which completely skews the whole discussion.

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those extra 6 stash tabs mean something in competition, but not necessarily in non-competition.
that's what I'm claiming in the "advanced" part of the discussion.
you're not ready for the "advanced" part yet.

You can't claim that stash tabs mean something and not provide any information on how they provide anything.


Basically what it comes down to is buying stash tabs provide you with space, so does creating multiple accounts, which are FREE to do so. So you can accomplish FOR FREE what players that spend money on stash tabs can do, but please continue on how stash tabs provide a player with a gameplay advantage.

Do you consider PoE or ARPG's in general competitive?

If I could chime in one more time: John's central argument isn't that stash tabs are P2W, but that stash tabs offer an advantage. John is hardly averse to saying stash tabs are 'pay for convenience'. He's qualifying that by saying it depends on how you play the game. In short, he's open to different interpretations of P2W, while he's only really asserting that stash tabs offer an advantage (correct me if I'm wrong, John)

After reading what both have said, I'm making this distinction: I think what goetzjam is saying about P2W is a solid working definition for the concept, while John is coming from the perspective of the subjectivity of P2W for individuals who approach the game differently.

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Quixote77 a écrit :

If I could chime in one more time: John's central argument isn't that stash tabs are P2W, but that stash tabs offer an advantage. John is hardly averse to saying stash tabs are 'pay for convenience'. He's qualifying that by saying it depends on how you play the game. In short, he's open to different interpretations of P2W, while he's only really asserting that stash tabs offer an advantage (correct me if I'm wrong, John)

After reading what both have said, I'm making this distinction: I think what goetzjam is saying about P2W is a solid working definition for the concept, while John is coming from the perspective of the subjectivity of P2W for individuals who approach the game differently.

pretty accurate, except I only got to do a preview of the real "is advantage = P2W" discussion, because goetzjam still isn't quite there.

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johnKeys a écrit :

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Quixote77 a écrit :

If I could chime in one more time: John's central argument isn't that stash tabs are P2W, but that stash tabs offer an advantage. John is hardly averse to saying stash tabs are 'pay for convenience'. He's qualifying that by saying it depends on how you play the game. In short, he's open to different interpretations of P2W, while he's only really asserting that stash tabs offer an advantage (correct me if I'm wrong, John)

After reading what both have said, I'm making this distinction: I think what goetzjam is saying about P2W is a solid working definition for the concept, while John is coming from the perspective of the subjectivity of P2W for individuals who approach the game differently.

pretty accurate, except I only got to do a preview of the real "is advantage = P2W" discussion, because goetzjam still isn't quite there.

@quixote77 His arguement isn't that yet. Because in order for him to talk about P2W we must first agree with his ideals that in some universe two players can do the same exact thing (except make alt accounts, which of course they can) meaning that if I purchase an extra stash tab on my character in this universe and in the other he doesn't I have an advantage, well yes I do. Because in that f*cked up world the limits aren't the same, I as a player can pay to get something a non-paying person can't get. But again this isn't true or possible in this world, but for some reason I need to agree with him in order for him to explain how advantage = p2w. Instead hes limiting himself to these "you don't get it" or "seriously" responses.

So with that being said, lets follow your scenario, which we all know isn't applicable in this world in order to further the discussion. To that being I have purchased a stash tab and this other me in the alt world hasn't I now have an extra tab. Please go into details on how my "advantage" is an advantage and how that turns it into P2W.

you obviously have the right to disagree with me about advantage, goetzjam.
but I'd prefer you actually understand my posts correctly, instead of getting them backwards and mixing up between claims, definitions and examples.

you wish to discuss the "advanced topic" a.k.a "part 2" - yet you show no signs of actually understating "part 1".
I read your posts. from start to finish. and when I see from them my time is wasted, one-liners like "seriously?" and "you didn't get it" are an appropriate response.

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you obviously have the right to disagree with me about advantage, goetzjam.
but I'd prefer you actually understand my posts correctly, instead of getting them backwards and mixing up between claims, definitions and examples.

Its hard to understand your post because you set certain circumstances which aren't true in this universe, so for me to believe what isn't possible in this universe just for the sake of following your views is difficult.

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you wish to discuss the "advanced topic" a.k.a "part 2" - yet you show no signs of actually understating "part 1".
I read your posts. from start to finish. and when I see from them my time is wasted, one-liners like "seriously?" and "you didn't get it" are an appropriate response.

Refer back to my previous response.


Please take this with no grains of salt. But lets say I agree with you that advantage = something gained that helps me over another player so we can continue with this conversation.


^ Which I already said in the last response, yet you still seem like you can't further explain for some reason.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Its hard to understand your post because you set certain circumstances which aren't true in this universe, so for me to believe what isn't possible in this universe just for the sake of following your views is difficult.

Facepalm #1.
it was an example to illustrate what advantage given equal terms means.
you really, REALLY should have gotten that by now.

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lets say I agree with you that advantage = something gained that helps me over another player so we can continue with this conversation.

Facepalm #2.
I really am happy you agree that advantage = advantage...

but I guess you're not going to understand the actual point of part 1, unless I'll just scream it at you:


now can we please move on to part 2?

Does buying exalted and eternal orbs with dollars give you an advantage? Yes it does.

Is option to buy currency for dollars is P2W? Yes, it is.

Does buying lots of free space with dollars give you an advantage? Yes it does.

Is option to buy stash space for dollarsis P2W? Yes, it is.


No matter how hard you don't like the fact that getting advantage for real money in game over people, who are not paying, is p2w, it IS a p2w. The advantage may differ, but that will still be p2w.

Its like cheating. The fact is incontestable.

You will be banned for cheating if you will set up a farming bot even for one second. Just like the dude, who had it online 24\7 for months. Your excuse "i wanted to try, just for 5 minutes" won't work. No matter that advantage you got was null, fact that you have cheated is incontestable.