Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

Ok so you were using that to define equal terms. Just seems like an odd way to make a point about equal terms.

Ok so if tabs = advantage we must define what each are and those affects, I believe this is necessary before we move onto part 2.

as for @maxkardinal

"

Does buying exalted and eternal orbs with dollars give you an advantage? Yes it does.

Its explicitly cheating and cheating typically gives you an advantage.

"

Is option to buy currency for dollars is P2W? Yes, it is.

That is by definition p2w.

"

Does buying lots of free space with dollars give you an advantage? Yes it does.

Simply buying the space gives you no advantage, if I had 200 stash tabs and only 4 spaces used then I don't use anything a free player doesn't have. In addition you can have the same amount of "free space" by simply creating more then one account.

Therefore does paying money for stash tabs give me anything a free player can't have?
The answer is NO. Therefore paying doesn't give me an advantage as you don't have to spend money to get more stash tabs space.

"

Is option to buy stash space for dollarsis P2W? Yes, it is.

No, no it isn't this is explained above.

"

No matter how hard you don't like the fact that getting advantage for real money in game over people, who are not paying, is p2w, it IS a p2w. The advantage may differ, but that will still be p2w.

Except it isn't again simply having the stash tabs give you no advantage, you actually have to use them. In addition you can have all the stash tabs you want with multiple accounts.

"

Its like cheating. The fact is incontestable.

Cheating would be increasing the character's inventory, not stash tabs. For example endgame maps typically provide more drops then what you can carry, being able to carry more OUT of maps would give you an advantage over those that can't carry more.

"

You will be banned for cheating if you will set up a farming bot even for one second. Just like the dude, who had it online 24\7 for months. Your excuse "i wanted to try, just for 5 minutes" won't work. No matter that advantage you got was null, fact that you have cheated is incontestable.

Correct cheating = bannable, however stash tabs aren't cheating.

According to you logic, an ability to not using an advatage makes it not advantage at all.

So if i brought a gun in a knife fight, the fact that i may not use it, nulifies its threat.

That argument is invalid.

Substitution of the thesis is too obvious. ("Buying advantage = P2W" for "does buying X gives me something that people can't have?")

Makes further discussion not interesting.

"

According to you logic, an ability to not using an advantage makes it not advantage at all.

Basically yes, I I bought 1000ex and never used it then I don't have an advantage over you.

"

So if i brought a gun in a knife fight, the fact that i may not use it, nulifies its threat.

LOL, that isn't even close to being valid as in this scenario its the pure thread of having a gun that provides you with the advantage. If for example you had it, didn't use or show it then it wouldn't be an advantage.

"

Substitution of the thesis is too obvious. ("Buying advantage = P2W" for "does buying X gives me something that people can't have?")

If paying for something that players can have for free how is that P2W. My example I used earlier of if I buy one tab and you create a new account, you technically have the advantage as I have 5 tabs and you have 8.

"

Makes further discussion not interesting.

Ok, this is mainly between me and jk, but i'll respond to you.

"

My example I used earlier of if I buy one tab and you create a new account, you technically have the advantage as I have 5 tabs and you have 8.

You either don't know the meaning of a word "advantage" or don't understand how having all stash tabs on one account is an advantage over having same ammount of space spread btween several accounts in this game.

Both do not refute the fact that buying an advantage is pay to win.

"

You either don't know the meaning of a word "advantage" or don't understand how having all stash tabs on one account is an advantage over having same ammount of space spread btween several accounts in this game.

Provide an example to where storing more then the 4 stash tabs you are given provide an advantage. If you think you can provide that then please provide an example to how that advantage translates in regards to not using multiple accounts to accomplish the same thing, then compare them.

Plenty of people can play this game and be sucesful without spending a dime, that translates this game to be F2P with no P2W.

"

Both do not refute the fact that buying an advantage is pay to win.

Stash tabs aren't an advantage they are a convenience, until someone comes up with a good argument for why they are an advantage over convenience then your P2W argument is mute.

"

Provide an example to where storing more then the 4 stash tabs you are given provide an advantage.

Holding a shop.

"

maxkardinal a écrit :

"

Provide an example to where storing more then the 4 stash tabs you are given provide an advantage.

Holding a shop.

Ok so please continue on. This of course is with the assumption that everyone knows how to price everything correctly to sell (which they don't) You can easily have a shop with 1-2 (of the 4 that were provided) dedicated to selling.

3 words in response to my question isn't sufficient.

We both agree they are more convenient. This comes from my using only 4 tabs for most of my career here. I started this account in CB with a buy in in March 2012. A solid 7 months before the account you are on was created. I did not buy premium stash tabs until I went regal on June 12 2013.

My experience should not be on trial here. you cannot simply dismiss an argument because they did not come to their answer by the exact same experience you had. From an experience stand point, you do not have any advantage over me.

I only wish you would use the word "convenient" instead of "advantage". I fear we agree on almost all aspects of this, just you are using a different word. Which by definition I cannot agree with. P2W always offers a true advantage. If something is P2W, then it put others at a disadvantage. That is where the "Win" aspect comes into play.

IF you want this to continue on, use the right word. I posted the definitions earlier. Not any of the made up definitions that you want to use. I won't be continuing this otherwise. I've spent far to much time already arguing semantics.

If they ever release on website trading, tabs could move into the P2W category depending on how they do it. Example being you have to use a tab and declare it being your hard set "trade tab", thus limiting its storage ability to only stuff you are selling.

first, let's get something straight, Jackel:

March 2012 to June 2013, isn't January 2013 to this day. a solid 2 years.
and more importantly, Closed Beta didn't have temporary leagues that merge with Standard and HC - which make you feel the full slap to the face of having just 4 tabs, every time it happens.
and non-Void-League races with their occasional cool finds and rewards? yep.

also - for the sake of your sanity - I hope you were deleting most of your dead HC characters and giving their stuff away, like I was.
otherwise, I really don't know where I'd store my stuff, because even Guild Stash is no longer an option after I filled it up multiple times.
I'm leaving things on the crafting benches in the Hideout, right now.
I'm also having a seriously hard time sorting gems and doing Vendor Recipes in Standard.
doing what is bread and butter for a mostly-solo player like myself.

so like I said, it is a heck of a lot more than an "inconvenience" to not have extra Tabs.
therefore, I stick firmly with my definition they are in fact an advantage. a huge one.
I sure as hell have the right to use that definition, after 2 years of inflicting this punishment on myself. 2 years of deliberately buying stuff that are not Stash Tabs, because I believe they are P2W, and stand out among all MTX and Supporter Packs, in being P2W.

but we'll get to that in a second, because first you have to agree with me they are an advantage.



so, assuming you did - does advantage equal P2W? best answer: depends.

like people here said before me, if you are competing on the ladder and/or hardcore-trading and/or doing anything that requires having an edge on another player/s - Tabs become that edge. one you paid GGG for. P2W.

if you are not competing and just playing for your own leisure, is where I step in and say - from my own experience - not having Tabs can be a chapter in Dante's Inferno.
does that alone make them P2W? no. they are a giant convenience and a huge advantage over someone who doesn't have them, but since you aren't competing with that person - they remain only that. "borderline P2W" if you will, and you aren't crossing the border.

but now you have to remember, Path Of Exile is - by definition - a competitive game.
therefore, the amount of people *not* competing, should be a minority.
so, by virtue of the first case being more common than the second - I can now finally claim tabs are P2W.

mind you, it doesn't make the game P2W.
it's not.
and you can't even begin to compare Path Of Exile to some shitty phone game or crappy Korean MMO, where you have to buy stuff to actually beat the game.
but Stash Tabs vs. no Stash Tabs is - in my opinion - a P2W feature in a non-P2W game. the only P2W feature. in a game and company that literally live off player's money. it would be easier for GGG to go "full P2W". many others did in a similar situation. but they didn't. and they deserve a ton of respect for that.

"

March 2012 to June 2013, isn't January 2013 to this day. a solid 2 years.
and more importantly, Closed Beta didn't have temporary leagues that merge with Standard and HC - which make you feel the full slap to the face of having just 4 tabs, every time it happens.
and non-Void-League races with their occasional cool finds and rewards? yep.

Do you race quite often? Do you know you don't have to remove anything from the remove only tabs, hell if I was limited i'd just pull all the alt art rewards into 1-2 characters and throw some shitting low cost mtx on the character (so i wouldn't accidentally delete them) or just be careful when deleting.

"

also - for the sake of your sanity - I hope you were deleting most of your dead HC characters and giving their stuff away, like I was.
otherwise, I really don't know where I'd store my stuff, because even Guild Stash is no longer an option after I filled it up multiple times.
I'm leaving things on the crafting benches in the Hideout, right now.

I specifically bolded the part where you said you don't know where to store your stuff, the simple solution is a mule account, but for some reason or another you can't get the idea in your head that this is acceptable form of storage (even though previous games and some current games still use this method as the ONLY way to store additional gear)

"

so like I said, it is a heck of a lot more than an "inconvenience" to not have extra Tabs.

No it isn't you can store the same amount of items I can (granted across multiple accounts) so how can it ever be more then an inconvenience.

"

therefore, I stick firmly with my definition they are in fact an advantage. a huge one.

It simply cannot be, again an advantage is something a player has over another. I guess the counter argument can and always will be if I but 1 tab and you have 2 accounts, you technically have the advantage. This would be undeniable by your terms of an advantage.

"

I sure as hell have the right to use that definition, after 2 years of inflicting this punishment on myself. 2 years of deliberately buying stuff that are not Stash Tabs, because I believe they are P2W, and stand out among all MTX and Supporter Packs, in being P2W.

You have the right to use whatever definition you please, however it being disagreeable (and in my eyes incorrect)

In regards to your view of them standing out we can get real technical and say that diamond supporters paid for the right to add a unique into the game (that they typically have in mind specific builds for) couldn't that possibly be p2w in its own right?

"

but we'll get to that in a second, because first you have to agree with me they are an advantage.

No we don't have to agree that they are an advantage. Because the definition of advantage:

"

a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.

Simply doesn't apply.

"

so, assuming you did - does advantage equal P2W? best answer: depends.

If you stick by the definition of p2w you can say that p2w = advantage, but advantage doesn't always (and in most cases aren't) p2w. A good example is an experienced player is at an advantage over a noob, for multiple reason, does that mean the player p2w, no is he at an advantage, yes.

"

like people here said before me, if you are competing on the ladder and/or hardcore-trading and/or doing anything that requires having an edge on another player/s - Tabs become that edge. one you paid GGG for. P2W.

Competing on the ladder, how many people exactly do you think does this .001 % or less of players. Those that do can probably do the same without having 100 stash tabs on one account, they simply choose not to.

"

if you are not competing and just playing for your own leisure, is where I step in and say - from my own experience - not having Tabs can be a chapter in Dante's Inferno.

Do you have alt accounts/mule characters?

"

does that alone make them P2W? no. they are a giant convenience and a huge advantage over someone who doesn't have them, but since you aren't competing with that person - they remain only that. "borderline P2W" if you will, and you aren't crossing the border.

So let me get this right, you say in this line they aren't p2w and giant convenience, but above you mention that not having them are mor then an inconvenience. Now I kinda see why you write 1-2 line replies usually because you can't even fool yourself into thinking the same thing in 1 writeup.

"

but now you have to remember, Path Of Exile is - by definition - a competitive game.

Source on this being listed somewhere as a competitive game. It has races, which stash tabs don't provide you any help in and newly added pvp, which has its own issues not worth discussing in this thread.

"

therefore, the amount of people *not* competing, should be a minority.

Its actually quite the opposite here, the amount of people competing in this game is far below the majority and probably at or close to the 1% or less.

"

so, by virtue of the first case being more common than the second - I can now finally claim tabs are P2W.

So your saying that more people are competitive in this game therefore it pushes advantages into p2w?

"

mind you, it doesn't make the game P2W.
it's not.

Ok you lost me again, here is you confusing yourself.

"

and you can't even begin to compare Path Of Exile to some shitty phone game or crappy Korean MMO, where you have to buy stuff to actually beat the game.

Right so comparing them is wrong and using the same terminology that gets applied to those games are wrong as well.

"

but Stash Tabs vs. no Stash Tabs is - in my opinion - a P2W feature in a non-P2W game. the only P2W feature. in a game and company that literally live off player's money. it would be easier for GGG to go "full P2W". many others did in a similar situation. but they didn't. and they deserve a ton of respect for that.]

Ok you lost me again here, you've went from saying that not having stash tabs is more than an inconvenience to saying that are a convenience to saying stash tabs are p2w, but then aren't and again are.