Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

@johnkeys

People are confused here, there is no such thing as P2W in an ARPG game, because there is nothing to win. You kill monsters and get loot, whether or not I can store more loot easier then you don't mean anything. You are free to create a bunch of accounts to store all the same loot that I can. You can run 2 clients per machine just like me, nothing I spend money on helps me.

As for why stash tabs are more popular then other mtx is simple, people are lazy (and horders) stash tabs provide an easier way to store gears. People also have a harder time spending ~$50 then they do spending ~$20 on stash tabs.

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johnKeys a écrit :

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Jackel6672 a écrit :

I've always considered it "Pay for Convenience". My 10 extra premium tabs are no different then having 20 mules. I just have easier access to them and I'm not constantly logging in and out. that is about as close to pay to win as they get.

Could you imagine the server strain if we had all the active base using multiple clients, logging in and out of mules all the time?

can you imagine logging in and out of mules and playing extreme "Stash Tetris" with them all, just to transfer something one character has to another, given completely full stash and almost full char inventories?

finding gems when you have to socket them into stash items, for lack of space?

if you're a trader, log around all your mules trying to find that one item you're trying to sell atm, while the buyer is *hopefully* waiting patiently after being added to your *list is full* friends list?

..................

well that's the life of someone who does not buy stash tabs. my life.
they are a hell of a lot more than "a convenience". and in a game that doesn't have a clear definition of "winning" but where every bit of advantage and time-save counts - they most definitely are pay to win, even if not in the classic sense of "pay $$$ for this 100000 DPS sword that one-shots all bosses and gives you infinite free re-specs and super powers".

that's why I'd buy every single MTX the game has, before buying one extra tab.
masochistic? probably.

but the plus side, is they are the only P2W in the entire game.
something which is far from trivial for Free-To-Play games nowadays.
that alone, is something GGG deserve huge credit for.

Your stash Tetris example is quite simply bad planning. How much of this stuff is items you are actually going to use, or have actual plans to sell? There is even a program now that can search your inventory / stash and find items for you now, so if you are utilizing all conveniences you should never have that problem.

Mules are what I, and everyone else did in D2. Its not hard to have a mule hold certain things, and have a system for certain mules to carry certain items. Its easy in a game like this that has so many character spaces per account.

As an example, my Premium tabs, which are the only tabs I bought took the place of my mules.

Also, if the game does not have a clear definition of winning, it simply becomes your opinion if you believe an aspect of the game is P2W. Can't actually debate based on opinions.

I played that way for the first year playing this game. I used mules, I did fine. The tabs are convenient, but they do not actually give me an advantage over you. You only perceive that they do, because of your own artificial limitations.

They do not grant you anything you cannot already get by using mules. I can even search my mules inventories from the website if I so feel, which can't be done with my stash. When I did trade, back in the day, I stored items on mules and twink gear in my tabs. It actually was not hard at all.

Also, are buying character slots P2W?

please stop with the bullcrap, Jackel.
the mere fact I survived with 4 stash tabs across 2 years, in Default/Standard, playing both HC and all temporary leagues and some non-void-league races - isn't "bad planning".
it's fucking good planning. incredible planning that takes maximizing every. single. damned. stash, inventory, and Guild Stash pixel to a whole new level.
I'm a fucking master at Tetris now.
can probably beat the original classic game with my damned eyes closed.

are you seriously arguing against the fact, an extra tab gives you an advantage over me, had you played exactly the same way I did, for the same time I did, on the same system I did?
a system which btw gives you not a shred of a chance to multibox anything between your mules, because it can't fucking run more than one PoE instance at a time?

don't bullshit me man.
I'm not one to be bullshitted.

Tabs = advantage.
fact.

you don't define that as P2W. I do. we can argue about that. continue the discussion from that point.

but trying to disprove the above fact it is an actual advantage, is just silly.

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johnKeys a écrit :

please stop with the bullcrap, Jackel.
the mere fact I survived with 4 stash tabs across 2 years, in Default/Standard, playing both HC and all temporary leagues and some non-void-league races - isn't "bad planning".
it's fucking good planning. incredible planning that takes maximizing every. single. damned. stash, inventory, and Guild Stash pixel to a whole new level.
I'm a fucking master at Tetris now.
can probably beat the original classic game with my damned eyes closed.

are you seriously arguing against the fact, an extra tab gives you an advantage over me, had you played exactly the same way I did, for the same time I did, on the same system I did?
a system which btw gives you not a shred of a chance to multibox anything between your mules, because it can't fucking run more than one PoE instance at a time?

don't bullshit me man.
I'm not one to be bullshitted.

Tabs = advantage.
fact.

you don't define that as P2W. I do. we can argue about that. continue the discussion from that point.

but trying to disprove the above fact it is an actual advantage, is just silly.

Adding stash tabs is improving of quality of life, nothing more. Your point is silly.

I hope one day GGG will add option of additional tabs for character's inventory. That would be a great improvement of QoL. Haha and don't tell your jokes about advantage.

You honestly thought I meant you had to multibox to get use out of mules? I left like 4 spots open in my stash, and transferred that way between characters.

You did not even go against any points I made. You just keep repeating yourself. You are arguing that basically, the P2W aspect of buying stash tabs is that you have the ability to store an item in one of 20 or so stash tabs, vs putting the item in a blank holding spot in your stash, and transferring it on to a mule character at your own convenience. (24 slots total for free) Keep in mind that the "Win" aspect of this is not defined, as you said yourself. I found it easier at that time to keep my mules organized, then I do tabs now. I actually gave thought into if the item was actually worth saving.

Its quite simply a convenience and only one if you actually manage to keep the things organized. Let alone the hell that comes at the end of a league.

You also did not answer if you thought buying Character Slots would be P2W based on the criteria you are using for stash tabs, since they are technically one in the same.

You also put a lot of emphasis on the struggle you have had over the last 2 years, which ends up being anecdotal at best. I can respect that your views are going to be horribly skewed, and that there is no way to ends this argument properly.

It also sounds like you are running the game on a system that is not at the minimum requirements. Which again, is a limitation set by you, and not by the game.

Please tell me what winning in this game is.

k thanks

simply cannot argue with a person, who neither reads more than skimming over the latest post (then understands it backwards, clinging into minor details), nor understands the basic concept of "advantage given equal baseline terms".
especially if there's more than one of said person.

so I'll keep my claim tabs are - factually - an advantage, and you keep yours they aren't.
I won't go out of my way convincing you otherwise, if you aren't listening and I'm just wasting time and energy.

if you guys are willing to listen, I'll continue.
without repeating myself, so you better read my earlier posts and understand my point.

and if you agree they are in fact an advantage, then we can actually discuss seriously if "advantage" equals "P2W", or not.
that's the debate I'm aiming at, and it should prove very interesting - because unlike in the "advantage" one, I won't be in a position to immediately call BS on your claims based on personal experience.

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johnKeys a écrit :

simply cannot argue with a person, who neither reads more than skimming over the latest post (then understands it backwards, clinging into minor details), nor understands the basic concept of "advantage given equal baseline terms".
especially if there's more than one of said person.

so I'll keep my claim tabs are - factually - an advantage, and you keep yours they aren't.
I won't go out of my way convincing you otherwise, if you aren't listening and I'm just wasting time and energy.

if you guys are willing to listen, I'll continue.
without repeating myself, so you better read my earlier posts and understand my point.

and if you agree they are in fact an advantage, then we can actually discuss seriously if "advantage" equals "P2W", or not.
that's the debate I'm aiming at, and it should prove very interesting - because unlike in the "advantage" one, I won't be in a position to immediately call BS on your claims based on personal experience.

Stop calling that a "fact" when you have not proven they are. Since you won't set a criteria on what "Winning" is, clearly stash tabs do not allow you to beat a boss more easily. You can kill the sames bosses with 4 tabs, vs 8 tabs. Same as No mules, vs having mules. Its convenient not having to change characters so much, but less convenient at the end of leagues.

If one is to admit that they are an "advantage", then they would be P2W as it would give an advantage that would allow one to compete at a serious level in all aspects of the game, by paying money for it.

Its not that were not reading your posts, its that you have not realized there is no middle ground here. Its either "P2W Advantages" or "Not P2W No factual Advantage".

The word "advantage" has negative connotations, because you are using it in a way as to say that you are disadvantaged. This is clearly not the case and is why I keep using the word "Convenient". It is more convenient to players to use tabs, but it does not make anyone else disadvantaged.

John, you still don't want to answer this question. Is buying character slots p2w? Assuming you can use that character to mule.

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Jackel6672 a écrit :

Since you won't set a criteria on what "Winning" is, clearly stash tabs do not allow you to beat a boss more easily. You can kill the sames bosses with 4 tabs, vs 8 tabs.

But that's entirely wrong. The player with 8 tabs will make recipe items more easily and thus acquire better items faster than the player with 4 tabs, hence he will find the boss easier.

Sure, all it does is save you time. Just like how being able to buy currency saves you time you would have otherwise spent farming it. Thus, if stash tabs aren't pay to win, then being able to buy gear and currency also isn't. Both only save you time.