Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

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BIDMAL a écrit :

It would be p2w even without rmt or stash tabs. Coz people with better PCs would load faster, play smoother, die less, etc. Hence progress better in races.
If OP wasn't 8yo he'd know that with enough will you can find arguments to support the most ridiculous statements, but that wouldn't make them true.

Except this in an ARPG game so "winning" in this case has no true definition.

The real pay to win in this game is buying a SSD.

Can someone please tell me what winning in PoE is?

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goetzjam a écrit :

Can someone please tell me what winning in PoE is?

- Top place finishes in races (varying in duration from 12 minutes to a week).
- Topping ladders in 3/4mo. leagues.
- First place finishes in PvP tournaments.

For the longer races, ladders, and gearing for PvP, extra stash tabs play an integral part in making playtime more efficient than without extra stash tabs. They assist in vendor recipes and in trading, and are faster than the alternative (mule accounts). An alternative does exist, though, for what it's worth.

For everyone that doesn't care about being competitive in PvE and doesn't care strongly about PvP (read: the vast majority of ARPG players), the game is effectively non-competitive PvE. Even if you could buy exalts from the microtransaction store, it wouldn't matter at all.

(It's mostly why I don't care, despite me acknowledging that stash tabs do give an advantage and that they can be termed p2w. That and the advantage being small enough that it falls under my own personal "that's unfair" threshold.)

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The question is this, though: Why is there a stash tab limit at all? Why do stash tabs need to be sold for IRL money?

Only GGG can answer this with a straight face. Early on their rhetoric was so against p2w that you think they'd avoid situations where it could even be called into question. They've even occasionally mentioned that they view Stash Tabs as some form of "pay-to-convenience", except that convenience in a competitive game means more winning than you otherwise would.

It sure would be "convenient" if Street Fighter sold a DLC that reduced all the double-half-circles to a single button press, or if racing games sold a microtransaction that flawlessly drove the player through tricky sections...

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Also agree with Vyvanne that an SSD will help you out far more than an extra stash tab ever will, for all of the "winning" scenarios listed above. Most notably in short races, of all things. But GGG doesn't sell SSDs, they sell stash tabs.

What does placing top in races win you IRL or give you an advantage in game?

What does topping the ladder in the leagues win you?

What does first place in PvP win you?


At least GGG offers some way to increase space without creating infinite amount of alt characters and having to purchasing multiple copies. Imagine if you actually had to pay for this game.

Of course peoples machines that behave better are going to play the game better, but you aren't paying the game maker that money so how is that even close to pay to win.

In the end there isn't anything you win by paying for stash tabs.

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goetzjam a écrit :

What does first place in PvP win you?

The tournaments do award actual RL prizes with a monetary value.

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Mivo a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

What does first place in PvP win you?

The tournaments do award actual RL prizes with a monetary value.

So let me refer back to the definition of P2W.

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pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

So you can win IRL prizes that don't give you an advantage over other players?

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goetzjam a écrit :

So you can win IRL prizes that don't give you an advantage over other players?

When people point out that stash tabs (or RMT, etc) provide a substantial advantage, the counter argument is always, "What is there to win?". When it is pointed out that there are now real life prizes that can be won, the counter argument is, "Yes, but do these prizes provide an advantage?"

That's a little circular.

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When people point out that stash tabs (or RMT, etc) provide a substantial advantage, the counter argument is always, "What is there to win?". When it is pointed out that there are now real life prizes that can be won, the counter argument is, "Yes, but do these prizes provide an advantage?"

That's a little circular.

They don't provide you with anything in game that gives you an advantage over another player, that is by definition of P2W.

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goetzjam a écrit :

They don't provide you with anything in game that gives you an advantage over another player, that is by definition of P2W.

while I agree with your definition that Tabs are not P2W in the classic sense - because there's nothing to "win", and races/PvP don't have them as a factor anyway - this right here is something I strictly disagree with.

play this game as much as I did with 4 tabs, play the leagues I play, run the content I run, do what I do for half of the 2k hours I did... then go ahead and buy a 5th tab. just one should be enough, much less a bundle like they are sold as.
then tell me with a straight face, it doesn't give you any advantage over me.

so again, they are the only P2W element in this great game, but they are without a shadow of a doubt P2W.

there is a damn good reason why they are more popular than pretty much all pets and weapon MTX combined, and people go crazy whenever there is a sale of tabs.
but maybe you can show me one person, who went equally berserk on a helmet effect sale, as he did on a tabs sale?