Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

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Xavderion a écrit :

If you can run two clients at the same time, the time advantage you get through stash tabs vs having to mule is still miniscule and doesn't matter at all, especially in long (like 4 month) leagues.

Even though they function a bit different, it seems to me there's some merit to a stash that can come to your character, and perform face to face trade independently of your main character. So I'd say there are some pros to a mule that a stash tab can't offer, much like there are pros to stash tabs that mules can't offer. The 'advantage' line blurs further.

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Xavderion a écrit :

My point is, the advantage you get through stash tabs is so miniscule that it doesn't matter.

It's either an advantage, or it isn't.

You can argue about how PoE isn't a "significantly p2w game", but the second you admit that you can purchase an in-game advantage (no matter how small), you have admitted it is p2w.

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Xavderion a écrit :

If you can't run two clients at the same time because of your crappy PC, everyone will have an advantage over you, no matter the number of stash tabs.

this seems to be irrelevant. i can two clients at a time just fine. it's still a disadvantage versus having more stash tabs.

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Xavderion a écrit :

If you can run two clients at the same time, the time advantage you get through stash tabs vs having to mule is still miniscule and doesn't matter at all

talking from actual experience, playing this game on 4 stash tabs while commonly running 2 clients at the same time to mule, i can tell you that you are quite simply wrong.

sorry.

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Xavderion a écrit :

Additionally, a huge amount of stash tabs could even slow you down, because you tend to hoard useless items and you lose time sifting through everything

this is true, and you're actually paraphrasing/plagiarizing a point i already made several pages back in this thread.

however, if you have the same hoarding tendencies while muling as you do with a lot of stash tabs, you will create an even more difficult mess to untangle.

i was more making a point that you can use having low tabs to sort of train yourself to stop hoarding. but having extra tabs is obviously still a solid advantage if you are using them properly.

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Veruski a écrit :

the concept of p2w is incredible simple and easy to understand.
it means:
Paying with real-life currency for an in-game advantage.
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either that, or you have to dispute the definition.

Yup, many here do.[Removed by Support]

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Treffnix a écrit :

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Veruski a écrit :

the concept of p2w is incredible simple and easy to understand.
it means:
Paying with real-life currency for an in-game advantage.
...
either that, or you have to dispute the definition.

Yup, many here do. It's really just your definition. Your world is totally black and white, are you american? :)
(Ducking to avoid all the flames coming my way :) )

if you define it in a subjective manner, like painting an invisible line, then you can quite easily make the argument that no game at all is p2win.

it becomes something you can just twist.

you pretty much have to define it so that you're identifying the problem area: converting dollars into in-game advantage.

that's the spirit of what pay2win has always meant.

dollars -> advantage

(note: convenience is a synonym for advantage)

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Veruski a écrit :

It's either an advantage, or it isn't.

You can argue about how PoE isn't a "significantly p2w game", but the second you admit that you can purchase an in-game advantage (no matter how small), you have admitted it is p2w.

Not really. If the advantage is so small that it doesn't have any de facto impact on anyone's performance, it's not p2w. This is the case here.

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Veruski a écrit :

this seems to be irrelevant. i can two clients at a time just fine. it's still a disadvantage versus having more stash tabs.

Now that's mean, don't call johnExcuses irrelevant :P he can't run two clients at a time. If you can, you have no measurable disadvantage to someone who has many stash tabs.

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Veruski a écrit :

talking from actual experience, playing this game on 4 stash tabs while commonly running 2 clients at the same time to mule, i can tell you that you are quite simply wrong.

sorry.

Oh? Then you can probably explain how I'm wrong. I muled in closed beta and it didn't take more time than it takes me now to sort through my items and 20+ stash tabs.

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Veruski a écrit :

this is true, and you're actually paraphrasing/plagiarizing a point i already made several pages back in this thread.

however, if you have the same hoarding tendencies while muling as you do with a lot of stash tabs, you will create an even more difficult mess to untangle.

i was more making a point that you can use having low tabs to sort of train yourself to stop hoarding. but having extra tabs is obviously still a solid advantage if you are using them properly.

Lol'd at plagiarizing x) Also you still haven't shown me this 'solid advantage' you're claiming exists. Nobody has.

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Xavderion a écrit :

Oh? Then you can probably explain how I'm wrong. I muled in closed beta and it didn't take more time than it takes me now to sort through my items and 20+ stash tabs.

I have, on multiple occasions, exactly and explicitly explained to you and others, on multiple different posts, just how and why muling is a disadvantage vs having more tabs.

Every time I have done this, you say I'm wrong or ignore the post.

despite explaining that i am actually very experienced running on low tabs, and have done it for a while, and have also run with high tabs as well. while you, on the other hand, don't seem to have any such experience.

it's pretty obvious. it takes more time to mule, even if you are running 100% smooth with 2 clients. periods. it takes more time.

there's no arguing about it, or debating it. whatever you are doing by muling, it takes longer to do that then to simply utilize a larger stash space.

it takes more time, from all the following perspectives:

1) storage of items.
2) trading of items
3) retrieval of items
4) moving items to the proper character
5) recipe organization (if this is your thing)
6) organization of items in general

all of these things become harder and more time consuming with muling.

you see someone in chat 'wtb SOME_ITEM_YOU_HAVE for VERY GOOD PRICE'

1) lots of stash tabs:
Town Portal, run to stash, find said item (anyone having issues finding it and making this a 'con' of many stash tabs is an unorganized and chaotic person), link it in a whisper. it takes few seconds and in most cases guarantees a deal

2) mule accounts:
(if said item is on another account):
find an account that has said item, log on to it in second poe instance (lets assume it is running already, if not - add quite a bit of time for poe startup), log in to a proper character, trade said item to main character [alternatively try to find the buyer-to-be in trade chat on that account], link it in a whisper, hear 'thanks, but ive sold it already'

there is an advantage of having it on a single account. a very, very significant advantage that makes gameplay smoother and easier (trading is by ggg definition the most important part of this game ('economy is the most important part of this game' Chris Willson, GGG CEO).

one can mule stuff, but he will never win a good bid from trade channel (and these DO happen a lot) and having a shop is also more than crazy difficult to maintain as it requires paying attention to TWO poe clients - on first one is the game, second holds trade chat. etc etc

it takes to be blind or simply fanatic to not see that stash tabs ARE an ingame advantage that add up pretty quickly to very significant advantage (time saved, recipes done, trades performed, bids won, convenience of storing few copies of the same unique that is expected to go legacy, ability to hoard gems for quick 1alch/chaos sells between maps (these trades also DO happen and as they take less than 20 seconds and most are races mule accounts have ZERO chances of selling)). all that for a petty ~20$

and the best thing is that i think this is a fair price and a good business model. but why they insist that this is 'purely cosmetical ethical micotransaction' when this DOES affect ingame performance? just admit it - there are 3 non-ethical MTX (stash tabs, guild stash tabs and char slots - respec option probably shall join them sooner than latter) and all the rest ARE ethical, no-gameplay effect ones. it is a fair deal - noone shall leave poe because of that. but calling stash tabs ethical, no-effect MTX leaves bad taste as it is simply a lie.

every word spent trying to argue with Xavderion, is a word wasted Veruski.

the man spent years perfecting his straw-argument and derailing skills.
ignore him.
save your energy for serious debates with people who disagree, but are at least ready to discuss this like adults.

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sidtherat a écrit :

2) mule accounts:
(if said item is on another account):
find an account that has said item, log on to it in second poe instance (lets assume it is running already, if not - add quite a bit of time for poe startup), log in to a proper character, trade said item to main character [alternatively try to find the buyer-to-be in trade chat on that account], link it in a whisper, hear 'thanks, but ive sold it already'

Why wouldn't you just use a dedicated trade account, keep it in a1n, and list items under said account, leaving the client open at all times in addition to your playing account? Seems to me that all that stuff you just listed is a problem only if you make it a problem. I'd think a mule trade account means never having to leave a zone to trade again. Would only be a problem if you were trying to sell more stuff than 4 tabs + a character inventory.

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b15h09 a écrit :

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sidtherat a écrit :

2) mule accounts:
(if said item is on another account):
find an account that has said item, log on to it in second poe instance (lets assume it is running already, if not - add quite a bit of time for poe startup), log in to a proper character, trade said item to main character [alternatively try to find the buyer-to-be in trade chat on that account], link it in a whisper, hear 'thanks, but ive sold it already'

Why wouldn't you just use a dedicated trade account, keep it in a1n, and list items under said account, leaving the client open at all times in addition to your playing account? Seems to me that all that stuff you just listed is a problem only if you make it a problem. I'd think a mule trade account means never having to leave a zone to trade again. Would only be a problem if you were trying to sell more stuff than 4 tabs + a character inventory.

ofc you sell more than 4 puny tabs and char inventory.. esp if you want to take advantage of all other bonuses having lots of storage place provides. sorry, but most shop threads, even small ones have items that wouldnt fit into 10 tabs.. not mentioning one

and if you want to sell anything via shop you have to be 'online' on poe.xyz - this also creates another requirement to mulling account