I don't want to spend skill points :l

Why shouldn't they be divided?

It is a personal preference within you not the game. I don't think you understand what I'm arguing. People have fun different ways. You appear to have fun by maximising efficiency. I have fun by planning a character and seeing if it works or not. We can both have fun within the same framework though we will be playing with different amounts of efficiency. This is true for every game in existance...

Really my comments have nothing to do with PoE design, but were rather an advisory to people who fall into the trap of playing for efficiency when they might enjoy other aspects of gameplay. I shouldn't feel that I'm playing the game 'wrong' just because my skill point allocation is sub-optimal because I personally get no pleasure in being the best and it is unachievable for me anyway.

My advice is to really analyse why you enjoy games. If you don't play games to achieve maximum efficiency - then don't play them as if you are trying to achieve maximum efficiency. On the other hand if you do, maybe you are better suited to a game where the trial and error takes a few hours before you figure out whats the best possible build - such as D3.

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Sonjuro a écrit :

I really don't understand the idea behind punishing players who just want to play the game. It makes little sense to me. Games are meant to be fun. You get punished enough in real life, so why bring that to a game so needlessly?

This is an example of what I meant by gamer programming. We feel like we are punished for making a suboptimal choice. I admit, I do as well. Is this response something that helps or hinders your enjoyment of the game? For most people in hinders and they suggest ways to get around decisions by changing the game. By contrast I suggest changing your reactions to 'bad' choices so they are in line with the core reason that you play games.

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VoxelSquid a écrit :

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StickAndMove a écrit :

I don't think I'm asking for anything ridiculous here. I'd just like to play a game that doesn't involve character deletion as a prerequisite to enjoyment.

The site's calculator is wonderful and much appreciated, but reading stats and playstyle options are poor substitutes for experiencing them. Mistakes, even more significant ones, shouldn't be met with such harsh punishment.

This is due to the game philosophy. GGG designed PoE to have meaningful, impactful choices. Of course, the downside of this is that new players find it more difficult to get into the game. Please persevere in spite of your mistakes. Once you get over the difficulty curve however, you will be able to enjoy the freedom offered by the deepest ARPG system that has ever been made.

This. There is a learning curve. GGG arent going to hold your hand very much.

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mcol0508 a écrit :

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Sonjuro a écrit :

I really don't understand the idea behind punishing players who just want to play the game. It makes little sense to me. Games are meant to be fun. You get punished enough in real life, so why bring that to a game so needlessly?

This is an example of what I meant by gamer programming. We feel like we are punished for making a suboptimal choice. I admit, I do as well. Is this response something that helps or hinders your enjoyment of the game? For most people in hinders and they suggest ways to get around decisions by changing the game. By contrast I suggest changing your reactions to 'bad' choices so they are in line with the core reason that you play games.

The core reason anyone plays games is to enjoy them and to have fun.

It's impossible to do either if you're obsessing over which skills to get.

I don't think it's about efficiency or optimal choices as much as it's about wanting to be able to pick the best skills, in your opinion, and still be able to enjoy the game. If you go too far out within the tree and find out that the skills you had chosen actually make the game harder for you to enjoy, the only option shouldn't be to create your character.

Honestly, that's bullshit and something that will only hurt this game in the long run. If people want a hardcore experience, allow them to have it -- don't force it on them, and everyone else, just so the minority has an easier time holding themselves to certain convictions.

Sorry, but making your character IS this game! Having full respecs would be like allowing you to get past a hard part in a level in an action game just because you want to or using a program to create all viable words for you while playing scrabble. This game is about figuring out what you want to do with a character, planning how you will do it, and seeing if it actually works when implemented.
The trade off with having to create new characters when you screw up a build is this wonderful thing called the shared stash. You keep all the skill gems, orbs, maps, etc you have gained from these failed characters to use to make life with new characters that much easier. So, you might lose that character due to him/her sucking, but you will still have a lot of stuff to show for it!
The argument about not wanting to play through the same content is kind of funny to me- this game is MEANT to be played through at least 3 times to get to a point that you can say you "beat it", so I'm not sure if this is the right genre for you if you don't want to repeat content.

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Sonjuro a écrit :

The core reason anyone plays games is to enjoy them and to have fun.

It's impossible to do either if you're obsessing over which skills to get.

I don't think it's about efficiency or optimal choices as much as it's about wanting to be able to pick the best skills, in your opinion, and still be able to enjoy the game. If you go too far out within the tree and find out that the skills you had chosen actually make the game harder for you to enjoy, the only option shouldn't be to create your character.

Honestly, that's bullshit and something that will only hurt this game in the long run. If people want a hardcore experience, allow them to have it -- don't force it on them, and everyone else, just so the minority has an easier time holding themselves to certain convictions.

Thanks for continuing the conversation Sonjuro this is fun!

The problem I see with allowing full respecs are as follows:
- The game is 'solved' within weeks. Look at what happened with Diablo 3, imagine if you had to level you characters and how much it would have taken for a WW/WW barb build to become the overwhelming majority
- Once solved everyone uses the same skills and builds
- Increases the unhealthy gamer obsession with efficiency INSTEAD of fun. As indeed they were equated by a post earlier in this thread.

A better way to deal with Skill Point Obsession is what I believe GGG may have achieved:
- Make early points useful for almost all builds a class might end up using
- Make the effect of more specialised points obvious before taking them
- Make the passives that effect more complicated stats harder to reach, allowing enough time to Newbs to understand what they do.

Take a look at the tree and you'll see it is designed to prevent the need for respeccing. The Witch's start point: Spell Damage or Mana regen close by. Great for all Witches. Then the specialist skills clearly effect different kinds of damage, summons, elemental or wands. Then the things like crit chance are quite a fair way away, but still within reach of the talents you'd have taken anyway.

To need a full respec you would have needed to specialised heavily in a kind of damage (or keystone) and then decided that kind of damage was not what you liked. In this situation GGG (and myself) believe you should reroll because the character you planned and the one you want are significantly different and you'd need time to relearn the class while levelling.

For simple 'mistakes', like decided you didn't want a particular keystone or node cluster you or that you desparately need more health or attributes you have Orbs of Regret.

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Sonjuro a écrit :

I really don't understand the idea behind punishing players who just want to play the game.

I don't understand this? There are two types of players: those who want to be able to respec, and those who don't want this to be an option (as exemplified and explained by others in this thread). Why are only the former group referred to as "players" in your post. I'm player too, and I "just want to play the game" too, but not with respec options. If respec was an option, I would feel "punished" (to use your words).

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Sonjuro a écrit :

I don't see why each character can't be afford a single opportunity to do a full respec. If people don't like it, they don't have to use it. Everyone wins.

How can you possible claim such a thing? It's not about people not being able to contain themselves. It has to do with whether you are being surrounded by players who have actually achieved what their character shows or not. The complete experience in the game is not only decided by what you have achieved on your own, but also what you have achieved in relation to other players. If there's an option for full respec, it means you can allow yourself to do everything wrong for quite som time, and just make a "new character" without having to do the playing all over. By "forcing" people to reroll, it means those who have accomplished much have done significant research in advance, and have shown that they have had a plan behind it all. Meeting these players in-game or seeing YouTube videos posted by such players is part of the whole experience. A community where a larger percentage of players actually knowing what they are doing is a better community in my opinion.

If full respec was an option and I would choose not to respec I would just gimp myself. I wouldn't do that, thus it's not a real option, but merely an unwanted feature (at least for me and people like me who loved the hardcoreness of D2).

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RustyGalloway a écrit :

at least for me and people like me who loved the hardcoreness of D2.

You know that Diablo 2 has unlimited respects too for almost 3 years (march 2010)?

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Sonjuro a écrit :

The core reason anyone plays games is to enjoy them and to have fun.

It's impossible to do either if you're obsessing over which skills to get.

I don't think it's about efficiency or optimal choices as much as it's about wanting to be able to pick the best skills, in your opinion, and still be able to enjoy the game. If you go too far out within the tree and find out that the skills you had chosen actually make the game harder for you to enjoy, the only option shouldn't be to create your character.

Honestly, that's bullshit and something that will only hurt this game in the long run. If people want a hardcore experience, allow them to have it -- don't force it on them, and everyone else, just so the minority has an easier time holding themselves to certain convictions.

Please moderate yourself. You are "bullshitting" all the game mechanics that mainly draw me to this game. There are many games that have great gameplay, but no contemporary games have the advanced game mechanics PoE has. This is PoE's strength and what separates it from the myriad of other commercially available games in this genre.

You can't categorically claim this and that is what players want and that this and that will hurt the game. The core players of this game (diamond supporters and the likes), really love the concept of this game, and are the most important customers of GGG. Remove all that, and you'll probably be left with a bunch of casual gamers who just want to try out an alternative to Diablo 3, Torchlight II and similar games.

I don't know about the others on "my side" here, but the changes you are advocating would probably lead me to quit playing this game.

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Jester375 a écrit :

Sorry, but making your character IS this game! Having full respecs would be like allowing you to get past a hard part in a level in an action game just because you want to or using a program to create all viable words for you while playing scrabble. This game is about figuring out what you want to do with a character, planning how you will do it, and seeing if it actually works when implemented.

^ This says it all. Thanks for that post, Jester. :)

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CommodoX a écrit :

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RustyGalloway a écrit :

at least for me and people like me who loved the hardcoreness of D2.

You know that Diablo 2 has unlimited respects too for almost 3 years (march 2010)?

No, I stopped playing long before that. Lord of Destruction was released in 2001. I probably was "done" with the game sometime around 2004-2005. Since then, I had been waiting for a similar game with some tweaks and updated graphics. PoE has brought me just that.

edit: BTW, that sounds like something they did to reach newer players after a big chunk of the main player base (those who came along from the start) had left the game. It was an old game by then, and being easily accessible for new (and casual) players is usually a necessity for old games if they are to compete with newer titles.