Less RNG in Socket Crafting Please!

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Wittgenstein a écrit :

please don't edit my posts.. turning one thing into another isn't crafting, when I boil water and it becomes steam I am not crafting steam. If I toss a plate at the wall I am not crafting.. pieces.

Here is my question. Since you brought up "Korean grinders"

Is killing a million mobs and getting less than optimal results a "Korean grinder" if so, than that should be an issue as well, but nobody is mentioning that, they are focusing on the orbs. The orbs are not crafting, think of it as a "do over" on a kill item you received, that's all it is.

Please don't give off the impression that the game is set in stone then?

Subjective interpretation of what "crafting" is, would be where we will agree to disagree then, and in this the act of refining your items into something you want, albeit with a method that's about as useful as "rerolling a dice" I deem this as an old and horribly outdated form of crafting "Personally" and one which is about as fun as mindlessly clicking and inviting disappointment til I load up League of Legends and get reminded that game development including F2p and microtransaction driven games aren't all completely doomed.

As I've stated in other threads, EVERY time that I stop playing the game to in any way take note of the RNG element, the developers have FAILED to incorporate it in the best possible way. That's not up for debate, that just means it was not incorporated RIGHT. Or is too relied upon.

And I'm talking about EVERYTHING in this game that reminds me of a "korean grinder" which is a term you should if gaming in this "era" know about, they're korean developed or published games which are LADEN with abusive game mechanics and dubious methods of getting you to keep rolling the dice. They are not the future of gaming, far from it, they're just good at getting people hooked on skinner box garbage. Some of them can be successfully integrated into a game these days, others just stick out like a sore thumb and cheapen the game, ironically said games that are being emulated commonly, are LESS popular than the ones that don't... who's the bright spark who's looking at these games and thinking it's a good idea?

Niche audience is one thing, insultingly bad mechanics and obviously "korean grinder" esque is another.

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BazzV5 a écrit :

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Undon3 a écrit :

I'm as old school as it gets at my 35 age and playing games since ZX 81/Spectrum/C64 etc. I had CPU's from almost all Intel generations, since 80286, and constantly played RPGs when I could find them. I did things the hard way since forever, including typing the code of the game each time I powered on my no storage ZX81 "computer".

Yeah I started a little after you with a 386 DX40 but it was a great introduction to games like Ultima Underworld and the many of the AD&D games. Also played some of the early Xeen series and the Wizardry games too.

But still man....what do you guys want? I keep hearing that it's bad RNG but fixed price farming materials for crafting, (ala Age of Empires), would be a much poorer option than our current pure RNG.

Anyone with reasonable expectations knows that a 5L/6L isn't gonna come easy but at least we have a real chance to get it cheap. To me thats a preferable solution than farming and saving 1500 fusings for a 6L.

The 386 was an awesome generation :)

What do "we" want? I really can't speak for others.

What would I want?

Balance. With RNG in the mix. With unpredictable results in the mix too. With RNG drops in the mix too.

But...

It shouldn't be 100% RNG. (from now on, read this as "I'd like to...", because I don't think it's good because I want it and so on, if you know what I mean...)

Looting (because it is related): some mobs should have loot tables. With known loot. And unknown loot too. So you could farm your stuff, it might be very rare, but you'd know it's there., and it would be your goal. On top of the limited RNG loot tables, there would be the full RNG system we have.

Crafting: should NOT break your gear. EVER. This is among the most annoying things I ever encountered in gaming, ever.
- should improve your gear based on investment
- there should be recipes for all kinds of specific gear/mods and so on. Crafting that gear should still be based on ilvl.
- there should still exist high-risk orbs for gambling lovers, but they should not be the only option. Add things, so you can please more people, don't take things away from some to give to others. The high-risk orbs should offer a chance at godly gear, the predetermined orbs only for nice gear. These orbs should be very rare, and they could decrease the quality of your gear, but there should be another orb to undo this. This way you will still have only dedicated players having the godly gear they deserve, and please the others too. Loosing a few very valuable orbs is enough, there's no need to break the gear too, on slot machines you put money, you lose money, not also your hand which touched the machinery.
- crafting at lower levels should be encouraged, instead of orb-hoarding. Good for economy.

That's basically it. Crafting/farming should be rewarding enough, while still offering the most dedicated players the chance to have godly items that 99% of the player base will not have. The 99% should have the means at their disposal to get decent gear they will be pleased with, the more time spent-->the better the gear.

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Hellkaiser a écrit :

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Wittgenstein a écrit :

please don't edit my posts.. turning one thing into another isn't crafting, when I boil water and it becomes steam I am not crafting steam. If I toss a plate at the wall I am not crafting.. pieces.

Here is my question. Since you brought up "Korean grinders"

Is killing a million mobs and getting less than optimal results a "Korean grinder" if so, than that should be an issue as well, but nobody is mentioning that, they are focusing on the orbs. The orbs are not crafting, think of it as a "do over" on a kill item you received, that's all it is.

Please don't give off the impression that the game is set in stone then?

Subjective interpretation of what "crafting" is, would be where we will agree to disagree then, and in this the act of refining your items into something you want, albeit with a method that's about as useful as "rerolling a dice" I deem this as an old and horribly outdated form of crafting "Personally" and one which is about as fun as mindlessly clicking and inviting disappointment til I load up League of Legends and get reminded that game development including F2p and microtransaction driven games aren't all completely doomed.

As I've stated in other threads, EVERY time that I stop playing the game to in any way take note of the RNG element, the developers have FAILED to incorporate it in the best possible way. That's not up for debate, that just means it was not incorporated RIGHT. Or is too relied upon.

And I'm talking about EVERYTHING in this game that reminds me of a "korean grinder" which is a term you should if gaming in this "era" know about, they're korean developed or published games which are LADEN with abusive game mechanics and dubious methods of getting you to keep rolling the dice. They are not the future of gaming, far from it, they're just good at getting people hooked on skinner box garbage. Some of them can be successfully integrated into a game these days, others just stick out like a sore thumb and cheapen the game, ironically said games that are being emulated commonly, are LESS popular than the ones that don't... who's the bright spark who's looking at these games and thinking it's a good idea?

Niche audience is one thing, insultingly bad mechanics and obviously "korean grinder" esque is another.

Sorry if I gave off that impression but considering the stance of GGG regarding the orbs, and the fact that people have been asking for less randomness with them since the start of CB and the orbs have remained as they were, I assume no further changes will be coming. I may be wrong, certainly.

Personally, I enjoy the game, I like RNG games so long as it isn't required that I am lucky in order to progress in the main game. I do not feel that PoE is like that, I have had a 6L item.. once. I rarely if ever trade with other players. I rarely if ever team. Yet I have made it into the 60's quite a few times.. I then make an alt because, well, I love alts. So maybe the difference between you and I is that you want to continually progress with a particular character and I do not? Not sure. In any event, I do not feel that PoE's RNG based system is removing the ability for players to progress through the game - and if it is - that progression is being halted at the upper difficulty levels, where, progression should be halted if you aren't properly specced and geared (just like any other RPG). I remember having to grind for hours in FF to beat X boss or to find X item to beat X boss.. it's just the way it is. I didn't have to grind for hours to beat the main game (as long as we are using the term grinding to refer to going over the same content repeatedly) I did have to grind to beat the optional bosses.. I have no issues with having to grind to beat the hardest maps or to find those maps for that matter.

It would be much better IF u could craft mods U NEED on the item and then RNG that mods value roll.

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_Seze_ a écrit :

It would be much better IF u could craft mods U NEED on the item and then RNG that mods value roll.

yes it would....but it would also be ridiculous.

Someone had a thread in the forums about "entitlement issues" with some ppl these days.. and the older I get, the more apparent it is.

RNG is RNG for a reason. You're not supposed to get "everything you want handed to you on a silver platter" ALL THE TIME! You have to work for it. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.


edit: even if you rng the "mods value roll", you shouldn't be able to get the "stat you want.. just because"

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Wittgenstein a écrit :

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Hellkaiser a écrit :

"

Wittgenstein a écrit :

please don't edit my posts.. turning one thing into another isn't crafting, when I boil water and it becomes steam I am not crafting steam. If I toss a plate at the wall I am not crafting.. pieces.

Here is my question. Since you brought up "Korean grinders"

Is killing a million mobs and getting less than optimal results a "Korean grinder" if so, than that should be an issue as well, but nobody is mentioning that, they are focusing on the orbs. The orbs are not crafting, think of it as a "do over" on a kill item you received, that's all it is.

Please don't give off the impression that the game is set in stone then?

Subjective interpretation of what "crafting" is, would be where we will agree to disagree then, and in this the act of refining your items into something you want, albeit with a method that's about as useful as "rerolling a dice" I deem this as an old and horribly outdated form of crafting "Personally" and one which is about as fun as mindlessly clicking and inviting disappointment til I load up League of Legends and get reminded that game development including F2p and microtransaction driven games aren't all completely doomed.

As I've stated in other threads, EVERY time that I stop playing the game to in any way take note of the RNG element, the developers have FAILED to incorporate it in the best possible way. That's not up for debate, that just means it was not incorporated RIGHT. Or is too relied upon.

And I'm talking about EVERYTHING in this game that reminds me of a "korean grinder" which is a term you should if gaming in this "era" know about, they're korean developed or published games which are LADEN with abusive game mechanics and dubious methods of getting you to keep rolling the dice. They are not the future of gaming, far from it, they're just good at getting people hooked on skinner box garbage. Some of them can be successfully integrated into a game these days, others just stick out like a sore thumb and cheapen the game, ironically said games that are being emulated commonly, are LESS popular than the ones that don't... who's the bright spark who's looking at these games and thinking it's a good idea?

Niche audience is one thing, insultingly bad mechanics and obviously "korean grinder" esque is another.

Sorry if I gave off that impression but considering the stance of GGG regarding the orbs, and the fact that people have been asking for less randomness with them since the start of CB and the orbs have remained as they were, I assume no further changes will be coming. I may be wrong, certainly.

Personally, I enjoy the game, I like RNG games so long as it isn't required that I am lucky in order to progress in the main game. I do not feel that PoE is like that, I have had a 6L item.. once. I rarely if ever trade with other players. I rarely if ever team. Yet I have made it into the 60's quite a few times.. I then make an alt because, well, I love alts. So maybe the difference between you and I is that you want to continually progress with a particular character and I do not? Not sure. In any event, I do not feel that PoE's RNG based system is removing the ability for players to progress through the game - and if it is - that progression is being halted at the upper difficulty levels, where, progression should be halted if you aren't properly specced and geared (just like any other RPG). I remember having to grind for hours in FF to beat X boss or to find X item to beat X boss.. it's just the way it is. I didn't have to grind for hours to beat the main game (as long as we are using the term grinding to refer to going over the same content repeatedly) I did have to grind to beat the optional bosses.. I have no issues with having to grind to beat the hardest maps or to find those maps for that matter.

First of all, assumptions are usually made in haste, no biggie. I have often thought that the developers I placed my faith in were "better" than the decisions they later on made and was wrong, can't predict people, as they're sometimes infected with stupidity or, in some cases wake the heck up and start really understanding what makes a strong system ingame.

And don't misunderstand me when I say this, as I'm not deliberately trying to be an ass. But from what I can see, you're in fact then deliberately just ignoring the issues that are caused because they don't affect you. I used to do the same thing in another game, I wasn't very invested in it and I barely liked it, but there was enough initial option in the f2p character creation ingame and a decent enough community to level with and non "cutthroat" systems lol. So I made a lot of alts...

Did that make the game great?

GOD NO, it was a hackjob.

Did that make the game successful.

It was "sunset" recently much to the disappointment of fans.

That doesn't mean that I looked to the endgame and said to myself

"Oh well, if that's what you're into then it's there and it doesn't affect me so whatever"

I looked at it and said

"why develop it if you have to spend so much insane amount of effort just to get close to a whiff of it's lingering fart after it's left the room"

to put an analogy on it. So when I look at the madness of repetition that's going on in many f2p games, I wonder if they have taken leave of their senses, because as I stated, copying yet more RNG grinders for lack of a better word is NOT successful... lol...

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BazzV5 a écrit :

But still man....what do you guys want? I keep hearing that it's bad RNG but fixed price farming materials for crafting, (ala Age of Empires), would be a much poorer option than our current pure RNG.

Anyone with reasonable expectations knows that a 5L/6L isn't gonna come easy but at least we have a real chance to get it cheap. To me thats a preferable solution than farming and saving 1500 fusings for a 6L.

Like I suggested before, how Jewelers / Fusings should work (example):

Jewelers and fusings
-Chest starts with 1 socket (crafted Jeweler value and Fusing value of 1). Player adds Jeweler orbs, raising the crafted value randomly between X and Y. Once the chest reaches crafted Jeweler Value of 100, a second socket is added. value 200 a third. value 500 a fourth. After that it gets tricky.... 3k for number 5 and 10k for number 6.

You can still get lucky and reach 6 sockets really quick! Or take ages. But you are always progressing. Same story can be written for Fusing orbs, that add links on reaching thresholds. Again this can be done in 1 fusing, or in 1500. But you always know what you are doing, always improving, and 4 links are cheap.

Fixes:
-Horrible luck on 4 links (which you need for working builds late cruel / merci / maps).
-Sense of progression and actually crafting your gear.
-Never downgrading your gear (which is just dumb).

Chromatics
-Chest now has 6 sockets and all linked (thanks to above investments). Now it is time to raise the Crafted Chromatic Value. Each socket has a Crafted Chromatic Value that is 1 upon initially added to the item through above means (or random when found as a drop). The color is set random and cannot be changed. By adding chromatics to a socket (specifically, so not globally for the chest itself), it raises it's Crafted Socket Value. Upon reaching thresholds (two times) it unlocks a clickable interface where you can select which color you want to activate. A completely maxed chest lets you alternate between all colors on all sockets. Thresholds can be balanced to be higher for off colors until they unlock (green socket on a str/int chest) compared to base colors (blue on the int chest).

Again same logic applies as above. You can still get very lucky and unlock sockets cheap. You can still be unlucky and have a hard time to unlock off colors. Side effect: Random drops with off colors become much more valuable, because unlocking base colors isn't that expensive. It actually feels like crafting, and yet can be a currency sink.

hellkaiser: give the game a chance!

Play it for 3 mths + ... not 3 weeks less a day before going all "I understand everything".

This game has been around for years (CB) and many things have come and gone and been tweaked etc. It's how you design a good game. Use what worked in previous games, some trial and error, some feedback etc.

Going all high and mighty on an account that was opened in mid march 2013 (unless you've done something "important" in life or in a game that you can prove)...kinda makes you look silly (imo only).

I'll say it again: Give the game a chance (and GGG and the mods, and the players and heck even RNG)...you'll win the RNG war at some point. we all do from time to time... and we all lose here and there...its "RNG".

Just because you can't have everything you want, doesn't make it a "bad" thing.

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Josephoenix a écrit :

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_Seze_ a écrit :

It would be much better IF u could craft mods U NEED on the item and then RNG that mods value roll.

yes it would....but it would also be ridiculous.

Someone had a thread in the forums about "entitlement issues" with some ppl these days.. and the older I get, the more apparent it is.

RNG is RNG for a reason. You're not supposed to get "everything you want handed to you on a silver platter" ALL THE TIME! You have to work for it. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.


edit: even if you rng the "mods value roll", you shouldn't be able to get the "stat you want.. just because"

This is f2p game. All their money comes from micro etc. They need big audience of casual players to provide food\cars\bitches\blackjack etc. if the game has bad time spent\reward ratio casual player won't play it and thus wont buy stash tabs\cute looking wings\ears\ass u name it for his lovely char etc. All they will end up with is a small bunch of nolifers grinding shit 24\7 cause they got nothing better to do with life.

I'm very patient with devs and just casually playing the game having some fun here and there, hoping that if they were able to come up with all these ideas they will at some point perfect them.

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Josephoenix a écrit :

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_Seze_ a écrit :

It would be much better IF u could craft mods U NEED on the item and then RNG that mods value roll.

yes it would....but it would also be ridiculous.

Someone had a thread in the forums about "entitlement issues" with some ppl these days.. and the older I get, the more apparent it is.

RNG is RNG for a reason. You're not supposed to get "everything you want handed to you on a silver platter" ALL THE TIME! You have to work for it. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't.


edit: even if you rng the "mods value roll", you shouldn't be able to get the "stat you want.. just because"

"gamer entitlement" was a term coined early on by EA games.

Do I actually need to remind you, that outside of the one or two instance where clueless idiots have pushed development so far into the ACTUAL area of "no idiot left behind" wherein the game has defeated it's own goals in what it set out to do and negated it's OWN content beyond the "herp derp theme park mode"

that the term "gamer entitlement" is a load of horse manure and HIGHLY insulting to folks intelligence to fall back on as an argument?

Am I not entitled to decent gear if I spend a couple of hundred hours ingame? NO? I mean I'm putting in the effort as best I can, not my fault that the dev's can't balance away from gear requirements is it?

What if that gates me from content? what about then? how about if I could lessen that feeling of being horridly unlucky and underpowered by buying something from a third party source? isn't that irritating? I have to PAY real cash to get anywhere? not because you know, I want to actually support the developers for making a good game and avoiding these very pitfalls, the irony being that they see no cash when I buy third party and if I get scammed? well that's akin to divine intervention reminding me to just LEAVE the game as it's muck.. but NO, sorry I forgot I'm just self entitled for wanting you know, a game that's able to be finished without grinding for hours and praying to the RNG gods, or trading with some multibox farmer....

I think these "self entitlement" claims, need to just go and conveniently disappear, cos they're RARELY ever ANYTHING to do with "self entitlement" and it's thrown around as a friggin slur as is, without being completely taken out of context.

Folks using it wouldn't KNOW a REAL self entitled gamer if they got infected with a zombie virus and ate their still beating heart right out of them.