How to change Jeweler and fusing orbs

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deteego a écrit :

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BazzV5 a écrit :

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deteego a écrit :

Reason why people don't want RNG (or may accurately risk) in their fusing upgrades because it directly effects the way their skills are built

Surely that is based on the premise that people are fusing the item they're currently using.

If that's what the general population of players are doing in game then I can only slap my forehead AND shake my head.

Its not just that, there are many indirect effects which you are completely ignoring

I'm not ignoring anything man.

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deteego a écrit :

Because almost invariably any better item that drops will have a different socket combination (to the one you are currently using), people are forced to spend jewellers/fusings on that item. The problem is, because its so RNG prone, no one does that, and when they may finally get that socket combination, a better item may have even been dropped

And thats the point. There's some real micromanagement required here. Players really need to weigh up the potential cost of the required orbs against the additional benefits of the so-called "better" item.

For instance, if the net increase of wearing that new item is an extra 5 DPS or 15HP, (yes it's still an upgrade), is it really worth spending the orbs to link and paint it?

It doesn't take much time to do a quick evaluation of the likely crafting costs against the potential benefits and say NO if it the answer can't be justified.

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deteego a écrit :

Its actually a real problem in PoE, because what is happening now, is that people are hoarding currency instead of using it the way its meant to be used. Its starting to turn into D3 for this reason, when you get a game where loot drops became largely irrelevant to your character (for w/e reason) it will gravitate to an AN/RMAH system, and PoE is slowly moving there already

Currency hoarding was already prevelant in closed beta.

Some people just prefer to follow this path as an "alternative" to crafting and there's nothing wrong that.
I recall buying a 6S 2H maul for 50GCP's, (which was truckload back then), and it was only 4L. Took around 50 fusings to get a 5L out of it but it was the highest DPS 2H maul in the game. Well worth the combined costs of the initial item and the follow up crafting costs.

The guy I bought it from did a rage quit and went back to D3 after using some 1000 fusings trying to 6L it and thats the only reason it was offered for sale in the first place.

Point is crafting isn't always the best way to go and hoarding currency for big purchases is a viable alternative for those who like less risk are prepared to wait for the right item to come up for sale.

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deteego a écrit :

Its made even worse when someone buys a really good item on the forum trade (and its 5L or something), that person will probably be stuck with that item for weeks, or maybe even months (if we are talking endgame). If a person wants to upgrade that item, they will just spend that time farming currency, and then get soemthing on AH.

see above

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deteego a écrit :

Its not just about insurance on items, the fact that you need insurance already means that you have to find yet another (wearable) piece of loot to just insure yourself.

The next item in line for crafting, should be an upgrade to a much higher base item. That helps to ensure that the crafting efforts and costs are less frequent, less incremental and can be considered justifiable.

The difference in approach is that you already own and are using that "insurance item". It's the upgrade that you're looking for, (rather than the other way around).

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deteego a écrit :

The problem is that after level 60, no one actually really crafts items anymore, either vendor ones or the ones that drops which is completely contradictory to the design of the orbs. The only people that actually craft, when you reach that level, is the top 1% players that float in so much currency they don't know what to do with it (i.e. players like kripp).

I don't agree with those numbers at all. Character lvl60+ is where the crafting should just be warming up. Thats where the late game and end game items are becoming accessible and where the crafting materials that have been saved on the play through come in to use.

If players are crafting their way to lvl60 and then stopping once they get there then they're doing it all backwards.

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deteego a écrit :

This is the first aRPG apart from D3 that I have played, where I reached a "high" level (im just saying 60, some people would argue 80, in which case the problem is worse), that I have almost never equip the loot that I drop (or with very cheap/minor adjustments with orbs). I have played like the 8 main aRPGS (D2,D3,TL,TL2,TQ,Sacred,DS1/DS2/DS3) and this is the only game that, apart from D3 does this. This has already been complained about ad naesuem, with people like moosifier recently, and you continue to defend it

I defend it because I don't have a problem with it.

And I'm also saying that the current system works within expectations if you do it how I and others do it. We've had the advantage of playing many new chars to high levels through closed beta, open beta and some of us even in Alpha. Crafting in it's current shape and form is fairly consistent when looked at over a longer period of time.

But I think the issue here is that you choose to read what we and others say as defending the system. Thing is though, it would be more beneficial and the game more enjoyable, if you just accepted the way that crafting currently works and used the same approach that has worked for us and high level players time and time again.

I really don't know what the Mooseman said in terms of crafting but he's entitled to his opinion. If he said that crafting can be improved then I have no doubt he clearly justified his argument. What tends to get my back up though is the excuses that people are using for wanting a change. To me, excuses such as making it more like other arpgs, or it's too hard, or it's nothing but RNG, etc etc are not valid reasons to change the current system.

Maybe that says more about me personally and my resistance to change but I don't see how making crafting more like other games is a justifiable reason to change the way it is as of now.

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deteego a écrit :

I either keep loot to trade it, or I vendor trash it, My latest character hasn't actually equipped any self made/found loot since I was level 55 (or somewhere around that). My latest character is now level 70

You wouldn't want to play Alpha. The miniscule size of the active player base in Alpha means that all your equipment is self found or crafted. There is no trading. Run out crafting orbs?....bad friggen luck.

And yet we still find ways to solo our way through the content and finally end up with self crafted 5L's and lvl70+ chars.

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ampdecay a écrit :

I dont care how many fusings it takes, as long as you dont lose links, that is the biggest demotivator to me.

Tried dumping over 50 fusings into this

Just to get no links several times and not even a 4 link once.

One of the many reasons I'm taking a break for awhile

have a friend with 4 socket legendary boots. he told me tonight he put 56 fusing into the boots and STILL no 4l. Seems impossible to me. The statisitcal odds are so low, is that really crafting? lol to me it should NEVER happen. Not a gimmie but come on 58 tries? Guess thats why he isnt playing much :(

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Crandore a écrit :

is that really crafting?

No its not. Its a variation of crappy korean games systems 'pay or we broke your gear and your char when you try to improve it after 50h of gametime'. Difference is that in PoE you cant pay to get bonus and more odds.
Funny and ironic thing is that even these kind of games and overall asian MMO/online games are quitting this kind of systems to remains competitive. Why? because ppl dont want systems like that. Most of them anyway.

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BazzV5 a écrit :

... What tends to get my back up though is the excuses that people are using for wanting a change. To me, excuses such as making it more like other arpgs, or it's too hard, or it's nothing but RNG, etc etc are not valid reasons to change the current system.

Come on, we've given you plenty of reasons besides those "excuses."

1. Active skills are arguably more important to your build than anything else (including passives and attributes), and you have almost no control over it.

2. There's a quality gradient whereas 5S is definitely better than 1S, so it's not like a subjective thing only pertinent to your particular build. Therefore, fusings/jewelers should work like armourer's scraps or GCPs, especially considering sockets and links are even more essential than quality (reason #1 again).

3. The marginal utility of using a fusing to upgrade 4L or 5L is NEGATIVE; imagine the consequences of using something like this as currency for the long-term. It's hard to predict exactly what will happen because we don't know all the variables, but it can't be good for the economy.

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BazzV5 a écrit :

And thats the point. There's some real micromanagement required here. Players really need to weigh up the potential cost of the required orbs against the additional benefits of the so-called "better" item.

For instance, if the net increase of wearing that new item is an extra 5 DPS or 15HP, (yes it's still an upgrade), is it really worth spending the orbs to link and paint it?

It doesn't take much time to do a quick evaluation of the likely crafting costs against the potential benefits and say NO if it the answer can't be justified.

In that case, its almost never justified, which means there isn't any point. If every single piece of loot drop, that you receive, it does not pay off to jeweller/fuse it (regardless of how rare it may be) than any kind of point the game tried to have in this system is already lost, because no one is using the orbs as their intended purpose (for crafting)

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BazzV5 a écrit :

Currency hoarding was already prevelant in closed beta.

Some people just prefer to follow this path as an "alternative" to crafting and there's nothing wrong that.
I recall buying a 6S 2H maul for 50GCP's, (which was truckload back then), and it was only 4L. Took around 50 fusings to get a 5L out of it but it was the highest DPS 2H maul in the game. Well worth the combined costs of the initial item and the follow up crafting costs.

The guy I bought it from did a rage quit and went back to D3 after using some 1000 fusings trying to 6L it and thats the only reason it was offered for sale in the first place.

Point is crafting isn't always the best way to go and hoarding currency for big purchases is a viable alternative for those who like less risk are prepared to wait for the right item to come up for sale.

The problem is that everyone is hoarding once they get past a certain level. Its not that there is a choice, there isn't any point in crafting once you reach the later levels unless you are overloaded in currency, and that assumes you either play 12 hours a day like kripp does, or you do some massive facerolling character (there is an assumption that such things will be fixed through beta)

You need to understand what illusion of choice is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobson's_choice). You are implying there is a choice between crafting and hoarding gold, currently there isn't, unless you are the top 1%. The risks for RNG is so massive in spending currency on any item that isn't a unique or a near perfect roll, that no one with a half a brain does it, unless they happen to have a few hundred orbs (at least)

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BazzV5 a écrit :

The next item in line for crafting, should be an upgrade to a much higher base item. That helps to ensure that the crafting efforts and costs are less frequent, less incremental and can be considered justifiable.

The difference in approach is that you already own and are using that "insurance item". It's the upgrade that you're looking for, (rather than the other way around).

You are missing the point, you have to
#1. Find an item that you want to eqip because of mods

#2. Spend currency/time to find an insurance item

#3. Spend currency fixing the item your just found so it wont kill your skill build

#4. Finally actually equip the item

Because of points #2 and #3, the gap between #1< ---->#4 is disgustingly massive, much more than any other aRPG to date.

When you play TL2/D3/D2/TQ, if you find a better item, you just equip it straight away. There isn't a single item in those games that will kill your skill build. In some of those games, you can gamble on the item (which can make it worse), but that "worse" is not losing your skill builds, it may mean one of your skills do less damage (but its still going to be a 5 projectile ice blast thing or w/e it is)

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BazzV5 a écrit :

I don't agree with those numbers at all. Character lvl60+ is where the crafting should just be warming up. Thats where the late game and end game items are becoming accessible and where the crafting materials that have been saved on the play through come in to use.

It should, but it doesn't. There is no point in crafting at that level unless you are already hoarded with currency.

I know this, because I just spent 2 weeks leveling a summoner witch (who is now 70, just started mapping). I have never, spent currency on crafting after level 50 or so, for the reasons I just stated

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BazzV5 a écrit :

If players are crafting their way to lvl60 and then stopping once they get there then they're doing it all backwards.

Thats because the game is not letting them because it has way too much risk. Believe it or not, (and its usually a completely subconscious thing), players need stability and determinism as much as they need RNG.

If a person has a "sense" or "feeling" that some part of the game should be stable, they will do whatever is possible to maintain that stability, either that, or completely stop playing.

In RPG's, this stability has always been the characters identity, which is the skill build, passives, levelling, etc etc. The instability (or chaos) has been in loot/items and the mobs you fight (and the environment/content around the mobs).

So when people see there is massive risk in using fusings/jewellers on both items they wear, and items they find, for something they feel should be predetermined/stable, they will gravitate towards "stable" workarounds.

In games like this, its hoarding currency and going to an AH/RMAH system. The reason why this is, is obvious. There is no risk in AH. If I spend 3 exalteds in getting an item for a trade, I know 100% I will get that item, and I know 100% that I won't lose my exalteds and get nothing in the process. This is completely stable, no risk, no RNG, zilch

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BazzV5 a écrit :

I defend it because I don't have a problem with it.

Yup, and you are also in the extreme minority

There is a reason why there are so many of these threads

You should also try and develop some empathy and have a look at problems for other peoples perspective, instead of attempting to get everyone to play your way or view things from your perspective

The time when you immediately try to force someone to play the game a certain way is a clear indication that game is failing massively in a certain area, the whole point of the well designed and good games is to be dynamic and allow actual freedom of choice

If crafting is something that only works for the top 1% of players, than it has by design already failed

I mean there are people like Slayer, who also admit to having a similar attitude, but he actually admits that there is a problem, and it needs to be fixed

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BazzV5 a écrit :

And I'm also saying that the current system works within expectations if you do it how I and others do it. We've had the advantage of playing many new chars to high levels through closed beta, open beta and some of us even in Alpha. Crafting in it's current shape and form is fairly consistent when looked at over a longer period of time.

Its not consistant at all, I have played in CB beta, and I played since the start of OB, I have 5 characters ranging from 50-80 level range.

Crafting is the most inconstant thing about the game

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BazzV5 a écrit :

But I think the issue here is that you choose to read what we and others say as defending the system. Thing is though, it would be more beneficial and the game more enjoyable, if you just accepted the way that crafting currently works and used the same approach that has worked for us and high level players time and time again.

Lets get some things straight here

#1. You are defending defending the current system. Stop splitting hairs and dancing around it
#2. The number of people that say the current system is broken far outnumbers the number of people that say its fine
#3. Because of #2, this will be changed, at some time in the future, whether you like it or not, GGG has already done this. What the change will be, is anyones guess, but if you continuously blindly defend it, your are not giving any input into how its going to be changed, which you may not be happy with

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BazzV5 a écrit :

I really don't know what the Mooseman said in terms of crafting but he's entitled to his opinion. If he said that crafting can be improved then I have no doubt he clearly justified his argument. What tends to get my back up though is the excuses that people are using for wanting a change. To me, excuses such as making it more like other arpgs, or it's too hard, or it's nothing but RNG, etc etc are not valid reasons to change the current system.

They are all valid reasons. You don't think they are valid reasons because either you don't experience them or you don't care about them. Thats your problem though. Its like saying that cancer is not a problem (when people complain about cancer, and its solutions, and make comparisons in other countries where cancer is not prevelant etc etc), you would be arguing that cancer is fine because you have never gotten cancer (or you have gotten it and dont see it as a problem)

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BazzV5 a écrit :

Maybe that says more about me personally and my resistance to change but I don't see how making crafting more like other games is a justifiable reason to change the way it is as of now.

It says everything about you, the stark thing is though, with the attitude you have, you are actually harming the game you want to play more than you are helping it

Leats not beat around the bush here, the number of threads about fusings/jewellers/RNG (and people quitting that) are starting to approach the number of threads about melee and desyncs and whatnot. This means that GGG will change this system, its basically going to happen.

Your attitude means you are putting no input into the system at all

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BazzV5 a écrit :

You wouldn't want to play Alpha. The miniscule size of the active player base in Alpha means that all your equipment is self found or crafted. There is no trading. Run out crafting orbs?....bad friggen luck.

Yup, and right now the game is gravitating progressing towards D3 where you cant progress without trading, which is just as bad.

PoE needs to find a good compromise/middle ground, it is not there currently

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BazzV5 a écrit :

And yet we still find ways to solo our way through the content and finally end up with self crafted 5L's and lvl70+ chars.

The people that have succeeded in this are the people that
1. Use broken builds (like Totems/LA/GS etc etc) to farm up currency (these builds always end up getting nerfed)
2. Play 8-12 hours a day

So in other words, the current system is not working for the majority of the player base. Yes its working for you, you are also the exception. Why do I know this? Just have a look at the amount of threads coming out. The system is failing, you don't think its failing because you only judge success/failure from your own personal/subjective point of view, and thats the completely incorrect attitude to have towards things like this

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jeois a écrit :

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BazzV5 a écrit :

... What tends to get my back up though is the excuses that people are using for wanting a change. To me, excuses such as making it more like other arpgs, or it's too hard, or it's nothing but RNG, etc etc are not valid reasons to change the current system.

Come on, we've given you plenty of reasons besides those "excuses."

1. Active skills are arguably more important to your build than anything else (including passives and attributes), and you have almost no control over it.

2. There's a quality gradient whereas 5S is definitely better than 1S, so it's not like a subjective thing only pertinent to your particular build. Therefore, fusings/jewelers should work like armourer's scraps or GCPs, especially considering sockets and links are even more essential than quality (reason #1 again).

3. The marginal utility of using a fusing to upgrade 4L or 5L is NEGATIVE; imagine the consequences of using something like this as currency for the long-term. It's hard to predict exactly what will happen because we don't know all the variables, but it can't be good for the economy.

Question:

Can you name ONE build that REQUIRES a 6L? Without it, it cannot function AT ALL.

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

Can you name ONE build that REQUIRES a 6L? Without it, it cannot function AT ALL.

Its nothing to do with 5l/6L, its the fact that skills are part of your items which are subject to RNG

When you find loot, the odds of finding loot that wont break your current skill build is almost zilch (at least for later levels). This is different from any other conventional aRPG out there

Its one of the few aRPGs I have played where, after a certain point, you don't actually end up equipping loot that you find without having to use massive amounts of currency (which can easily be wasted) on that item so it can be used without breaking your character.

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KarraKurri a écrit :

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Crandore a écrit :

is that really crafting?

No its not. Its a variation of crappy korean games systems 'pay or we broke your gear and your char when you try to improve it after 50h of gametime'. Difference is that in PoE you cant pay to get bonus and more odds.
Funny and ironic thing is that even these kind of games and overall asian MMO/online games are quitting this kind of systems to remains competitive. Why? because ppl dont want systems like that. Most of them anyway.

Indeed

In fact historically speaking, these games in the long term almost always fail

Its why the average MMO in korea survives for like a few years and then they go bust, one way or another

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deteego a écrit :

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

Can you name ONE build that REQUIRES a 6L? Without it, it cannot function AT ALL.

Its nothing to do with 5l/6L, its the fact that skills are part of your items which are subject to RNG

When you find loot, the odds of finding loot that wont break your current skill build is almost zilch (at least for later levels). This is different from any other conventional aRPG out there

Good

Makes you think which item is actually better.

EDIT: Although I would be more in favor of increasing the chance to roll 4L on a 4S item.

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

Good

Makes you think which item is actually better.

No it doesn't, it just makes the number of "better" items massively smaller than any other aRPG out there. Its blindingly obvious and trivial to tell which item is better in this game, you are making it sound like it adds depth, the thing is, its not adding depth at all

Apart from D3 (and im sure you don't want to go there, a game where you reach a point where 99% of the loot is "worse" and you end up just farming gold for AH)

It's funny but I think this thread helps to explain why with an even playing field, (we all start with nothing), some players get all the nice things and some players do not.


Seriously man I give up.