Lets talk armor (the stat)

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RagnarokChu a écrit :

Thus ES > life unless you're gaining something from going life since higher number is better then a lower number.

You mean Endless Hunger and Cloaked in Savagery. I really like those passives, especially Endless Hunger. They both dont work with ES.

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

"

RagnarokChu a écrit :

Thus ES > life unless you're gaining something from going life since higher number is better then a lower number.

You mean Endless Hunger and Cloaked in Savagery. I really like those passives, especially Endless Hunger. They both dont work with ES.

Tbh I think it's the best way to buff life, don't give it a higher number equal to ES (although could use a slight nudge up since many builds have to go ES due to lack of life). Give life a ton of QoL + utility options.

ES can get both high buffer + high utility.

The way for life should be is medium buffer + medium utility + high migration.

With hybrids getting Medium everything + new avenues of utility from being a hybrid.

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Fruz a écrit :

If a monsters does +100% dmg as fire/light/cold, that means that you technically take 25% extra damage or less.
And that also means that if you reduce the physical part by ... let's say 25%, you end up reduction the whole damage by 20%.

Funny heh, if you had armour, you could be surviving Izaro with elemental mods ( armour + end charges obviously here )

ya.


izz with 2 ele mods, so he does 100% extra as cold and a 100% extra as lightning lets say.

For easy math lets just look at 1000 damage.

So he deals 1000 physical, then with the buffs 1000 cold and 1000 lightning.

If you ignore physical damage reduction you take 1000 physical damage, 250 cold (75% resisted) and 250 lightning (75% resisted). Total of 1500 damage taken. So if this is killing you then you need to realise that 2/3 of the damage you are taking is physical even with 2 ele buffs.

If you dont ignore phys reductions and stack 50% phys mitigation you now take 500 phys, 250 cold, 250 light, which is back to the 1000 original damage. 50% phys reduction is the same sort of protection here as being completely immune to cold and lightning damage.

Same with the map mods, 100% extra damage as lightning, the lightning part is only as scary as the physical part when u reach 75% physical damage reduction. Without physical mitigation if you roll a map with 100% extra damage as fire, 100% extra damage as lightning and -12 max res, youre still taking more physical damage than elemental damage off the mobs effected by those extra as elemental rolls.

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sofocle10000 a écrit :

Hunting a 200% increased armour from the tree, especially with a Juggernaut Ascendancy is very easy, and my main build went from a focus on physical damage increases (got a cool 5K with the same items that are on my char), to 6.4/6.6 K - I am a sucker for the Amplify notable so I prefer 6.4 K atm - without changing a thing (with better rolls on the rings and on the chest piece I could break 7 K easily, not to account for Devoto's, Astramentis or Death's Door that don't have life rolls, and only one jewel has inc max life), and still I feel squishy

do you have any evasion or block? My experience of armour without evasion or block is that its terrible tbh.

Astramentis sort of has life, u get about 50 life off the 100 all stats.

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Bristoling a écrit :

Armour should work against elemental hits at 33% effectiveness or so.
At the moment, the investment doesn't give you back the same return as just getting Endurance charges or other forms of mitigation.

That's a bit much, but I'd like it if there was a keystone that made armor somewhat more useful for a price.

Something like "Prismatic armor: Reduces your armor by 20% but converts 25% of elemental damage (AFTER resistances) to physical damage"




at the same time, I think that Granite flasks should be deleted from the game (With Basalt flasks functioning as their substitute) with Armor nodes Increased in power. So your Armor is purely from GEAR, not from your flasks-- You still have the "Oh shit physical!" flasks from basalt, but the stat of Armor is reserved PURELY for gear, in the same way that there's no "Increases your Energy shield" flask.

I also think that Grace/iron reflexes needs to be looked at as well since, as long as it exists, armor's power will be balanced around the assumption that you have that massive armor boost from Running grace and IR. Change grace to either Give "% MORE evasion" or to give a dodge chance.

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

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sofocle10000 a écrit :

Hunting a 200% increased armour from the tree, especially with a Juggernaut Ascendancy is very easy, and my main build went from a focus on physical damage increases (got a cool 5K with the same items that are on my char), to 6.4/6.6 K - I am a sucker for the Amplify notable so I prefer 6.4 K atm - without changing a thing (with better rolls on the rings and on the chest piece I could break 7 K easily, not to account for Devoto's, Astramentis or Death's Door that don't have life rolls, and only one jewel has inc max life), and still I feel squishy

do you have any evasion or block? My experience of armour without evasion or block is that its terrible tbh.

Astramentis sort of has life, u get about 50 life off the 100 all stats.

My experience with 20K armour, 7 End Charges, Fortify, Iron Reflexes, and 24% Block (up to 54% with a Rumi) was similar to the one that I have now with only 15K armour, 8 End Charges, Fortify, ~2K Evasion without Grace (and I mainly run Hatred for damage), 17% Block and a larger buffer of 1.4K HP - reducing the damage output by up to 40% made the fights longer, which made certain ones more dangerous, although I was never a slouch, and the 1 h buff was an improvement, the Bog/Quay bosses don't get to 10 s fights especially if I go fully buffed...

My Astramentis + Death's Door provide 113 Strength so a cool 56 HP for BOTH (instead of the 80-90 HP that a great rare would provide per piece).

I understand that as a Jugger (not an block/spell block focused one), I should feel elemental damage and spells and consider them the "bane of my existence", and that is due to my choice, but I don't want to feel that 20K armour don't make a sensible difference when compared to 15K, I would love to see that improvement and always try to reach for the next "tier"...

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aleksandor a écrit :

"

Bristoling a écrit :

Armour should work against elemental hits at 33% effectiveness or so.
At the moment, the investment doesn't give you back the same return as just getting Endurance charges or other forms of mitigation.

That's a bit much, but I'd like it if there was a keystone that made armor somewhat more useful for a price.

Something like "Prismatic armor: Reduces your armor by 20% but converts 25% of elemental damage (AFTER resistances) to physical damage"




at the same time, I think that Granite flasks should be deleted from the game (With Basalt flasks functioning as their substitute) with Armor nodes Increased in power. So your Armor is purely from GEAR, not from your flasks-- You still have the "Oh shit physical!" flasks from basalt, but the stat of Armor is reserved PURELY for gear, in the same way that there's no "Increases your Energy shield" flask.

I also think that Grace/iron reflexes needs to be looked at as well since, as long as it exists, armor's power will be balanced around the assumption that you have that massive armor boost from Running grace and IR. Change grace to either Give "% MORE evasion" or to give a dodge chance.

Yeah, there are enough flasks for physical protection, not just Basalt, but Taste of Hate and Stibne, to certain extent. Granite and Jade flasks should go away, and armour/evasion finnally buffed to be worth it.

Some time ago my attention took this item:



At first glance it's a meh item, but that 30% reduced spell damage mod..
I'm pretty sure that mod does stack with fortify, meaning that with juggernaut having 40% increased fortify effect and 8% reduced elemental damage taken node, it sums up to 66% reduced elemental spell damage reduction! (for phys and chaos spells 58%, for elemental attacks 36% for other attacks 28%).

Thou losing offhand pretty much kills dps..

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sofocle10000 a écrit :

My experience with 20K armour, 7 End Charges, Fortify, Iron Reflexes, and 24% Block (up to 54% with a Rumi) was similar to the one that I have now with only 15K armour, 8 End Charges, Fortify, ~2K Evasion without Grace (and I mainly run Hatred for damage), 17% Block and a larger buffer of 1.4K HP - reducing the damage output by up to 40% made the fights longer, which made certain ones more dangerous, although I was never a slouch, and the 1 h buff was an improvement, the Bog/Quay bosses don't get to 10 s fights especially if I go fully buffed...

My Astramentis + Death's Door provide 113 Strength so a cool 56 HP for BOTH (instead of the 80-90 HP that a great rare would provide per piece).

I understand that as a Jugger (not an block/spell block focused one), I should feel elemental damage and spells and consider them the "bane of my existence", and that is due to my choice, but I don't want to feel that 20K armour don't make a sensible difference when compared to 15K, I would love to see that improvement and always try to reach for the next "tier"...

but the setup with less armour has 1400 more hp, 5k armour cant mitigate 1400 damage, I think I would pick 1400 hp over 5k armour virtually every time.

we have debates in thread between people who use defenses a lot like myself and people who prefer to ignore armour and evasion completely and just use a kaoms heart. Kaoms gives you 400 more base hp than a rare which is about 1400 more life with modifiers, and the debate is do you want 22k armour + 12k evasion or do you want 1400 more hp, and thats a debate people will actually have different opinions on. When you take away 17k armour and 12k evasion from that and ask if you want 5k armour or 1400hp? I dont think anyone is going to cheer for the armour, theres no debate there.


regarding auras, do u have a lvl3 or 4 enlighten gem? Cause u may well be able to run grace and ahtred together with one of those.


reagrding this tree



do you feel like u need all that mana leech? Could u get away with just .4%? My builds seem to do fine with just a .4% and I wonder if something like this...




could net you 3% attack speed, 12% life and 18% armour + evasion without rly effecting your life/mana leech in a noticeable way.

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Andrius319 a écrit :

Some time ago my attention took this item:



At first glance it's a meh item, but that 30% reduced spell damage mod..
I'm pretty sure that mod does stack with fortify, meaning that with juggernaut having 40% increased fortify effect and 8% reduced elemental damage taken node, it sums up to 66% reduced elemental spell damage reduction! (for phys and chaos spells 58%, for elemental attacks 36% for other attacks 28%).

Thou losing offhand pretty much kills dps..

Fortify is less damage, so it doesn't add to the 8% and 30%. You could use the new Bismuth-Flask and make all your resistances the same to get another 10%. Also its not even a bad offhand. If you are using a Fire skill it has at least 45% increased damage, so for a spell based character it could work, for a weapon based on not so much.

I also don't feel armor is too bad, it is a stat that you can get easily and which does something very important. It basically negates most damage of all the trash mobs that are around you, which is incredible important for a melee. The thing is that is is a bit too hard to add something to your defenses that helps against elemental damage. With Endurance Charges you can get even more physical damage reduction but you are lacking elemental damage reduction like Dodge, Spell Dodge or the big buffer ES based builds have.

Something that could help life based armor chars is some form of Death Defy, a Notable or Keystone that triggers when they are dying and gives them 1 second to leech back into a positive value, which essentially makes their buffer a lot bigger. However instant recovery options have to be gone for that.

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

"

sofocle10000 a écrit :

My experience with 20K armour, 7 End Charges, Fortify, Iron Reflexes, and 24% Block (up to 54% with a Rumi) was similar to the one that I have now with only 15K armour, 8 End Charges, Fortify, ~2K Evasion without Grace (and I mainly run Hatred for damage), 17% Block and a larger buffer of 1.4K HP - reducing the damage output by up to 40% made the fights longer, which made certain ones more dangerous, although I was never a slouch, and the 1 h buff was an improvement, the Bog/Quay bosses don't get to 10 s fights especially if I go fully buffed...

My Astramentis + Death's Door provide 113 Strength so a cool 56 HP for BOTH (instead of the 80-90 HP that a great rare would provide per piece).

I understand that as a Jugger (not an block/spell block focused one), I should feel elemental damage and spells and consider them the "bane of my existence", and that is due to my choice, but I don't want to feel that 20K armour don't make a sensible difference when compared to 15K, I would love to see that improvement and always try to reach for the next "tier"...

but the setup with less armour has 1400 more hp, 5k armour cant mitigate 1400 damage, I think I would pick 1400 hp over 5k armour virtually every time.

we have debates in thread between people who use defenses a lot like myself and people who prefer to ignore armour and evasion completely and just use a kaoms heart. Kaoms gives you 400 more base hp than a rare which is about 1400 more life with modifiers, and the debate is do you want 22k armour + 12k evasion or do you want 1400 more hp, and thats a debate people will actually have different opinions on. When you take away 17k armour and 12k evasion from that and ask if you want 5k armour or 1400hp? I dont think anyone is going to cheer for the armour, theres no debate there.


regarding auras, do u have a lvl3 or 4 enlighten gem? Cause u may well be able to run grace and ahtred together with one of those.


reagrding this tree

Spoiler

https://www.pathofexile.com/fullscreen-passive-skill-tree/AAAABAEBAQHcBLMFLQVmBsYOPBHVEuEUIBRNFHEWbxa7GJEaOCFgI9MnLygqLdIuUzWSNe86UjrhOu09_EMxRJ5Hfkz_TeNQR1O7V5dYY1nzWhpdpF8_YEFjcGVNZlRmnmhlbydvO3IPcql07Xasd-N4DXloeu982YFBggeCm4TZhO-FUoV7i0-Mz49gkFWRzpRvl3maO5pqm2qfPp_fogCi6qZXqW6sqq2NtfK77byfvTa-p7_VwAHAGsEEwYvDM8bYyx7PftI402_WWNi92WHZfNrB3dXgn-Fz42rkUeoY7DjvDu988B_yQfJF8932SPcy97n46_rS_Ev-Cv6P

do you feel like u need all that mana leech? Could u get away with just .4%? My builds seem to do fine with just a .4% and I wonder if something like this...

Spoiler

https://www.pathofexile.com/fullscreen-passive-skill-tree/AAAABAEBAQHcBLMFLQbGDjwR1RLhFCAUTRRxFm8WuxiRGjghYCcvKCot0i5TNZI17zpSOuE67T38QzFEnkd-TeNQR1O7V5dYY1nzWhpdpF8_YEFjcGVNZlRmnmhlbydvO3IPcql07XTxdqx343gNeWh673zZgUGCB4KbhNmE74VShXuK8ItPjM-PYJBVkc6Ub5d5mjuaaptqnz6f36IAouqmV6lurKqtjbCrtfK77byfvTa-p7_VwAHAGsEEwYvDM8SCxtjLHs9-0jjTb9i92WHZfNrB3dXhc-Nq5FHpRuoY7DjvDu988B_yQfJF8932SPcy97n46_rS_Ev-Cv6P

could net you 3% attack speed, 12% life and 18% armour + evasion without rly effecting your life/mana leech in a noticeable way.

Well, I would like to have to choose between those 1.4 K HP and 5K armour and feel equally safe either choice I made, but that is not the case in Path of Life/ES nodes.

Regarding my aura choice, a level 3 Enlighten + Hatred + Grace leaves me with only 57 mana, which is borderline playable so even a level 4 wouldn't help much, only if I had to change to an Alpha's Howl I might play Grace + Hatred, but for the moment I prefer to alternate and use Grace and CWDT + Enfeeble only for the really difficult fights, and Hatred + HoA in the rest of the time. It is a choice that I made with confidence in my piloting skills.

You're also right regarding those nodes (those were my next options when leveling to 100), as reduced effectiveness map mods only affects life and ES and not mana, and those nodes were still used in a time when mana cost was a lot higher than now.

Thanks for the help (got to 6.65K with your suggestion), and I feel I'll grab the last leech node when I hit 97 and declare this build finished until a lot more balance changes regarding melee and life scaling are applied.

It is underwhelming that I have to pick so many defensive nodes and not feel quite safe - 31 pure HP nodes, 12 HP + armour/ev combined, and 3 armour + ev direct nodes, not to mention those 4 armour nodes from Juggernaut Ascendancy - and I have to rely on 22 directly related to damage, 21 Strength pathing nodes (that count for increasing life too), 4 jewel sockets and great 1 handed weapons to scale my damage to decent levels.

And this is what we call a balanced build these days...