Lets talk armor (the stat)

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allbusiness a écrit :

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

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allbusiness a écrit :

Then you should know that volatiles in Breaches are complete bullshit, and that it's very possible to die to them if you get a random bad mob coming out of the Breach.

volatiles are bullshit everyhwere imo, the entire idea of them is bullshit when it gets to levels where it can 1 shot. Its so anti melee that imo it cant be excused. Theres videos of them 1 shotting 9k hp builds in maps with mods where a vol could quite blatantly be dealing 3x as much damage with a different set of mods, so Im fairly sure in the right situation they can 1 shot a 27k+ hp character.

Ive got over 12k hours /played on poe, its been going for 4 years, so last 2 years I have to presume were talking a block of 5k hours and Ive died twice to vol blood in it. I think its a bs mod, but actual deaths thats all Ive had, I can picture both moments very clearly. They were, imo, unavoidable bullshit deaths to a mechanic that shouldnt exist.

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Fruz a écrit :

Perfect example where life + layers of mitigations would probably have been much stronger,

PS : post nerf ? didn't find the date.

ya thats an attack burst with hybrid physical and elemental damage.

An armour + evasion build would probably have taken about 2k, maybe 3k damage out of a 6.5-7k pool in that situation tops and just laughed it off, killed all those mobs, carried on with the map.


First hit takes off 3,277 es. In that other thread we were looking at hybrid phys+ele hits like this dealing 3k phys + 3k ele per hit and we mathed it for a 16k es shield build with physical flasks and endurance charges up vs a 7k life ar+ev character with a shield and the 16k es build could survive 6 hits before it dies, the life build could survive 20 hits before it dies. He does also have a rumis up, but its a nerfed rumis and he doesnt have 16kes, he has 11,277, he doesnt have endurance charges up which we had in the calcs, Id say all in all hes maybe not quite as tanky as the ci we calculated. I would hazard a guess that his setup would also have died in about 6 hits from the 6k combined damage hits we were looking at.

Ci builds like this are shit against this sort of incoming damage, so are kaoms type builds, well, kaoms are worse tbh. A life build with solid defenses will survive way longer in that sort of situation, pure CI is not even remotely comperable. Whoever titled that video "life is technically better than es", Im guessing that is sarcasm? If it is then it ultimately shows that guy hasnt got a clue how to make a life build because life really is technically 3x better than es against exactly the sort of situation shown there. Maybe he knows the game and thats a serious video title, if so fair play to him. A properly made armour + high block would have survived better, coil + evasion would have been better, armour + evasion would have been better, high armour + block with an aegis would probably be able to stand there afk for a few minutes while hes picking something to watch on netflix.




Even if it was a 10k physical damage 1 hit thats not going to gib a properly defended life character. I have an ar+ev marauder, presuming the attack got past the 12k evasion and the 42% block, hes got 27k armour, 7 endurance, basalt and toh, a 10k phys hit would deal 2,540 damage out of his 7k hp pool, which would trigger cwdt enfeeble. At that point its probably about 3 missed shots to evades and block before another lands, which he could take, and then another 3 misses. You could probably 9 shot him with a 10k phys damage attack, theres no way ur 1 shotting a properly defended life char with that.

A 5k life pure evasion build not using a coil + basalt + toh + endurance setup? Yeah... that guy might want to get a better build if he wants to survive a hit like that landing.

Everything you are saying includes block. So you're saying that every single life build has to play with a shield?


And two, the fact that you just said Etup doesn't know how to 'make' builds is hilarious. He's one of the best min maxers in the game, and has been #1 on the HC ladder multiple times at this point. You don't play HC, he plays HC and has been #1 multiple times. I'm gonna take Etup's word over yours that life is dumpster tier compared to ES.

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Fruz a écrit :

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allbusiness a écrit :

Everything you are saying includes block. So you're saying that every single life build has to play with a shield?


And two, the fact that you just said Etup doesn't know how to 'make' builds is hilarious. He's one of the best min maxers in the game, and has been #1 on the HC ladder multiple times at this point. You don't play HC, he plays HC and has been #1 multiple times. I'm gonna take Etup's word over yours that life is dumpster tier compared to ES.

Yes, that is a good point, block is very strong and evasion less ( because of how easy it is to convert block to spell block, partly ).


Now, I think that you are misunderstanding what we are saying.

There are obvious imbalances, mainly included VP + heaps of dmg + high ES buffer, making ES for efficiency a better choice ( volatile being another big element, while going very fast => volatile gets even more dangerous ).
But, it does not mean that armour and evasion are shit.

And I do believe that even though those players are among the bests, their endurance is being put to the test, and it can lead to misjudging situation sometimes, like in the video you linked.
But Tul breaches used to be pretty much overtuned, so there was that too ( I don't know if it was in this case, maybe not ).

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sofocle10000 a écrit :

Well, you could also use dual wield for block, and a staff like Hegemony's Era if you're serious about needing 2 6L so there are multiple ways to dance around block. And there is Dodge + Spell Dodge that could be used to a close effect as Block + Spell Block...

So if Etup's good at HC that invalidates not even one of Snorkle's arguments. Actually Etup should know better the strengths and weaknesses of well balanced life builds versus half baked on the defense side ES ones - 11K ES buffer, when he should have had either a larger one or more defensive investments...

It just shows how the ES larger than life and no proper defense requires to cap the ES buffer at absurd values if you want to survive at this moment in PoE...

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adghar a écrit :

this is not SC2 or League where everyone aspires to be that gosu sports star that makes clutch 0.02 second juke plays, this is a game about killing monsters, and there are a million and one situations where a player who just wants to drink some morning joe and kill some low red-tier bosses would rather have Life than ES. One such reason is bad connections, where you can't afford to lose your recovery from VP+GR leech, and that's something that Life builds have a natural advantage in, recovery, better access to life regen, leech, leech rate, avoidance to reduce incoming dps, on-block life recovery

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allbusiness a écrit :

1) Spell Dodge/Dodge are way better on an ES build than life because of the fact that you can stack grace with jade flask and get tons of evasion while still having 10k ES.

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Peterlerock a écrit :

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allbusiness a écrit :

1) Spell Dodge/Dodge are way better on an ES build than life because of the fact that you can stack grace with jade flask and get tons of evasion while still having 10k ES.

How many CI builds use 50% of their mana for Grace?
How many CI builds essencecraft dodge on rare gear?
How many CI builds use dodge uniques like Atziri's Step?
How many CI builds take Acrobatics? ;)

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Fruz a écrit :

Armour and evasion based char would have worked much better in this situation than what Etup had.
If it was not for volatile and ES being actually easier to build ( as in : stack buffer + dps and you're good to go, everybody knows what items people need already ), people would probably play more life based builds.
The fact that ES has lost most of its downsides is also .... screwing the balance ES vs Life, of course.

So yeah, if you are playing the ladder, ES will be more efficient.
It does not mean that life based builds are dogshit.


You want an example of something that's actually dogshit ?
Elemental hit, there you go.




PS : Nugi was top 10 ( I think, and if it was not top 10 it was top 20 ) ladder with his BF life build in BHC.

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allbusiness a écrit :

And two, the fact that you just said Etup doesn't know how to 'make' builds is hilarious. He's one of the best min maxers in the game, and has been #1 on the HC ladder multiple times at this point. You don't play HC, he plays HC and has been #1 multiple times. I'm gonna take Etup's word over yours that life is dumpster tier compared to ES.

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allbusiness a écrit :

Everything you are saying includes block. So you're saying that every single life build has to play with a shield?

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allbusiness a écrit :

Armor and Evasion are dog shit. You can make it work, that doesn't mean it's good. That's like saying I can kill Shaper with a white bow and poison, doesn't mean it's actually viable. What is the whole point of playing armor and evasion when you have to work twice as hard, be strapped into certain gear choices (as in you pretty much HAVE to play block or get a godly amount of life), do far less damage than an ES build, and still have issues against certain forms of damage, predominantly spell/elemental?

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allbusiness a écrit :

1) Spell Dodge/Dodge are way better on an ES build than life because of the fact that you can stack grace with jade flask and get tons of evasion while still having 10k ES.

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allbusiness a écrit :

No, armor and evasion wouldn't have worked better. Because if a hit from one of the big Tul commanders goes through and it's a crit, you're dead.

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

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allbusiness a écrit :

No, armor and evasion wouldn't have worked better. Because if a hit from one of the big Tul commanders goes through and it's a crit, you're dead.

I dont think the maths is on your side with that one.