A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W
|
nerf cyclone
|
|
" If that had actually been the case, League would have never grown enough to become an esport in the first place. Accelerating the leveling process is just a minor convenience when skill, tactics and teamwork dictate victory. I spent a lot of time in bot games, and even ran a few accounts just to relive the leveling experience. Even in bot games, you could see drastic disparities across skill levels regardless of the account level. I had to carry way more games than I should have. And then there were the folks that got mad and intentionally tried to lose... against bots. In ranked I was part of a team that lost to a 0-51 teemo because our team was so focused on racing to get the next kill that the underdog opponents we're able to gather enough strength to win one key team fight and take the nexus. I was actually glad they managed to pull it together after reviewing that teemo's record - the player intentionally tanked his performance at the expense of his teammates for his/her own pleasure. It was nice to see those folks rally given how badly the odds had been stacked against them. Yep, totally over league play.
|
|
" This is non-sequitur and incorrect. Having some amount of p2w doesn't prevent a game from growing. D&D Online was about as p2w as games get and it was huge for a short time. I won't get into what actually did tear that game down, because it would be a wildly off-topic wall of text, but the short version is that it wasn't the p2w features. " None of that has anything to do with it. You can take any player's win rate and apply the boost to it and they will progress faster with the boost. The point is that the boosts hasten your progression and could only be obtained with RMT. Tired of trolls? Ignore them.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168 |
|
" I get preferring games where you can earn a currency that can be traded. Champions On-line went that route and is still around now. I was one of the elite pvper's in that game... not so much by skill but the sheer lack of participation. Despite the lack of a major IP, they're still around now. City of Heroes was also another comic superhero mmo rpg without a fancy IP. They went a route most would consider pay to win near the end in an effort to survive, selling enhancements directly, their version of "gear/upgrades". They also tried a F2P model, but returning players coming to see how things were found themselves locked out of their gear so they never had reason to come back since they didn't even get their characters back in a playable state. Mobile gaming has grown massively with smartphones becoming the norm. Even though that industry is huge, plenty of folks avoid most of them like the plague simply because so many of them have a pay to win nature. That's pretty much why red shirt dude echoed the sentiment of Diablo players everywhere at the shock that Blizzard thought its gamers were so shallow they'd be content spamming a skill and spending money on cosmetics with little to no depth of gameplay. When EA's battlefront 2 debacle made headlines, they were up in arms because players could bypass extensive grinds and unlock characters that would grant distinct advantages during pvp combat. In this thread that has made no headlines we have a minority that choose to believe if it's paid for and not purely cosmetic it's stil pay to win. And it seems that none of them have gotten so far as to beat the pale council, the breach lords or shaper. And that's not so much to knock them so much as to point out that tabs or not, progress is up to the individual. Most players that try PoE don't even stick around to get to maps. Players set their own individual goals. Paying for the convenience of more space doesn't guarantee by any means you'll even find something to put in it. Paying to win means you're spending money to win, but means you actually have to win something. Before F2p models became a thing, people had to pay full price just to play a game outside of a demo, or drop quarters/nickels in arcades. I don't think you would classify paying to play as paying to win right, but technically you can't win at all if you can't play at all. But really, if this league was more popular, there would be a lot fewer replies. Yep, totally over league play.
|
|
" Levels don't mean winning, particularly in in a competitive setting. After all you exchange money to buy any console game. Yep, totally over league play.
|
|
" Before level 30 you are at a numerical advantage. That's p2w in the context of boosters. " Another fallacy that gets thrown around. Buying the game and buying progress in said game are entirely different things. Whatever "point" you think you're making is better made in some other way. Tired of trolls? Ignore them.
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168 |
|
" No, that is not what pay to win means. Yet again, you guys are strawmanning on the "win" portion of the term. From the wiki: "In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise need to spend time progressing in order to unlock said items. In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics. Market research indicates that pay-to-win mechanics are considered much more acceptable by players in China than in Western countries, possibly because Chinese players are more habituated to recurring costs associated with gaming, such as gaming café fees.[36]" Pay 2 Win is merely a term for paying for advantages. Its just rolls off the tongue much better than having 50 different terms. Its like Soda, or Pop. Or where I'm from, we call everything Coke. It's just a term that encompasses all forms of paid advantages, just like when you say you are gonna get a Soda, it could be anything from a Coke to a Mountain Dew. When you say p2w, it could be anything from an item, to a boost, to inventory space. The "win" is just something you seem to be caught up on to make your point. And this concept "win" I already talked about in another post. If "winning" is what you deem the only acceptable outcome of a true p2w system, then how do you deal with people who could buy 10000 dollars worth of items and still not win? If GGG sold Exalts and Gear, and that person still could not win a ladder race, is that p2w in your books? He didn't win, therefore he didnt pay to win. So by your own definition, buying items and gear is not p2w. If you say that buying items gives you a chance to win, then buying inventory space gives you an opportunity to make more profit. Which, we all know is the true endgame of PoE. Stash pages are an advantage over nonpaying customers. They just are. You know it, I know it, we all know it. And advantages fall squarely into the accepted definition of P2W. If you dont believe so, you are the outlier, not the other way around. Dernière édition par Destructodave#2478, le 18 mai 2019 à 02:34:59
|
|
" Excuse you and your assumptions for making an arse out of yourself, I think stash tabs are both p2w and less ethical than a cosmetic only mtx shop would be, I've bought everything but the unique tab personally, and I've done clear through shaper in most leagues, and even got an uber elder kill in synthesis. Now that doesn't mean that they shouldn't sell non-cosmetic things, but to be 100 percent honest, given the bloat in this game, their financial backing, the poorly optimized state of the game and their lack of dedicated efficient support nowadays that they shouldn't get a pass on anything related to said game. Their "ethical mtx" line is horse shit. Stash tabs, especially specialty tabs like the essence, divination, currency, and map tabs are pay to win. Dernière édition par jtggm1985#3694, le 18 mai 2019 à 04:08:18
|
|
" This is a perfect example of the irony in this thread. You claim I'm making an ass out of myself, yet clearly missed the MULTIPLE times I have pointed out the growing problem with "item bloat". In other words, we don't bother understanding what people say, we just see or hear something we disagree with and fail to acknowledge where we do agree, because we refuse to actually read what was said. One person keeps claiming there's an advandtage to levels in league, when any real league player would tell you its meaningless as many many smurfs have proven and can be seen on youtube if visual proof is needed. It's as if those players don't grasp the concept of skill as they want to see advantage in something that has no meaning just so it coincides with their perception. The argument is largely of semantics, and someone is even referencing wikipedia as a reference like its irrefutable proof... its a wiki.... It's one thing to disagree on definitions, but it's downright scary to see how some folks back their stance. It's like trying to explain to a flat earther the error of their conclusion but they refuse to accept it and that there's some conspiracy. https://www.gamedesigning.org/gaming/pay-to-win-games/ You don't have to agree with the article, you can always look up the games referenced, and Warframe is mentioned. Yep, totally over league play.
|
|
|
I'd take a wiki definition over a white-knight's on a forum any day of the week, that's for sure.
Especially one who is basing his entire argument on the actual words used in the term, and I know you aren't that stupid. You know fully well what you are doing focusing on "win." You know that "p2w" is just an over-arching umbrella term. So cmon guy. Seriously. The only real argument you guys have, is whether stash pages are considered advantages or not. Because p2w is mostly about advantages over other players. You cant actually make that arguement, so you keep focusing on the "win" knowing full well how dumb that is to try and pick apart the words in the term as your argument. Edit: Also, yea I agree Warframe has one of the best F2p models in gaming. Dernière édition par Destructodave#2478, le 18 mai 2019 à 06:46:18
|
|
