A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W

Phrazz, you're conflating legal definitions with colloquial ones and trying to debate the latter by arguments about the former. That's known as an "equivocation" fallacy.

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Miská a écrit :

I wish all these p2w babies would be banned from using PoE forever. You have no idea what p2w even means, nor have you ever played a real p2w game.

I literally provided examples and those people still chose to ignore them, or even claim they were "extreme cases".

There's just this unwillingness to consider evidence and simply believe what they believe. Of course the vast majority have spent little to nothing on said game, though at least some have.

As I have been trying to sort through standard, it's strange to think of how much better I would have been as a player if I had never invested into a single tab. I would be streamer level efficient by nature simply because I wouldn't be wasting my time hoarding low value stuff I'll probably never use for collection.

Then again, I may have just gotten bored and quit before I even considered fighting uber elder.

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Albinosaurus a écrit :

Phrazz, you're conflating legal definitions with colloquial ones and trying to debate the latter by arguments about the former. That's known as an "equivocation" fallacy.

Is "false advertising" a "colloquial term"? I think that touches legal definitions, don't you?

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

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Miská a écrit :

I wish all these p2w babies would be banned from using PoE forever. You have no idea what p2w even means, nor have you ever played a real p2w game.

I literally provided examples and those people still chose to ignore them, or even claim they were "extreme cases".

There's just this unwillingness to consider evidence and simply believe what they believe. Of course the vast majority have spent little to nothing on said game, though at least some have.

As I have been trying to sort through standard, it's strange to think of how much better I would have been as a player if I had never invested into a single tab. I would be streamer level efficient by nature simply because I wouldn't be wasting my time hoarding low value stuff I'll probably never use for collection.

Then again, I may have just gotten bored and quit before I even considered fighting uber elder.

The thing is these people would get alot more support if they would ditch there radical vieuws on how P2w this game actually is. The item bloating is absolutely stupid, and together we could probably move GGG to do something about it or provide some extra space for f2p peeps. Now I'm just angry honestly, this is insulting a great gaming company who has given alot and not asked for anything in return. It's disgusting honestly.

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ajo a écrit :

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Phrazz a écrit :

Predatory? How the hell can a one-time purchase of a few dollars that sticks with you forever be viewed as "predatory"? PREDATORY? Smell that words. Is "designing stuff that you are very encouraged to buy" predatory? OK. Predatory would've been forcing you to buy them every league. They may be P2W, but if you view them as predatory you'll have a hard time living your life.

I think that false advertisement alone is predatory. It doesn't really matter what grounds or reasons are behind it when it alone is a predatory thing to do. GGG have always been boasting about their ethical microtransactions and how they will never become pay-to-win. Funny enough, they become more pay-to-win with every league. Meanwhile other free-to-play games like league of legends are much more ethical without the need of funnel tactics like throttling and they don't ever boast about their ethical mtx.

Since I inadvertently saw this...

League of Legends has by far the best free to play model I've the games I've seen. Yet just about everyone claiming tabs are pay to win would consider them also offering pay to win options simply because of their boosts. Yet the only actual pay to win there involves paying actual players themselves to carry or tank their games for you.

At the same time, this sense of "more pay to win" is what I'd refer to them as getting uncomfortably close to the line. Premium tabs by themselves are only predatory to folks who feel entitled to free games. On the other hand, intentionally driving loot to a place where it takes up much more space than it normally needed (like resonators, fossils, fractured items) would definitely be predatory and should have really been the focus of this thread more than anything.

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Miská a écrit :

The thing is these people would get alot more support if they would ditch there radical vieuws on how P2w this game actually is. The item bloating is absolutely stupid, and together we could probably move GGG to do something about it or provide some extra space for f2p peeps. Now I'm just angry honestly, this is insulting a great gaming company who has given alot and not asked for anything in return. It's disgusting honestly.

The irony is that they probably would have issued a single premium tab for all players by now but threads like this show just how unappreciative gamers can be. Even though a single free tab alone would entice plenty of folks to buy more, between muling abuse from the botters there would always be threads like this where people voiced they "deserved" more for free.

The only reason I ever bought a handful of skins in LoL was because of how fair I saw their monetization of the game. Even now they've grown so much that players can earn skins albeit through rng and extensive play. Still, having the option makes it more palatable when choosing to open the wallet.

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ajo a écrit :

Yeah, I agree with most of your post but just want to point out that league doesn't actually have any boosts. They were removed at some point years ago and I didn't even notice it. They were used for reaching level 30 faster so you could unlock playing ranked.

Personally I wouldn't care if they were still there because they only allowed some rich boy to access ranked games earlier. I'll admit that they were a form of pay-to-win though. Better to remove it entirely and it was the right choice to make.

The problem with this perspective is that levels didn't dictate winning, even against bots. Leveling faster didn't offer any true edge, skill and understanding is what separated the player base. Even when it came to rune pages, summoners spells and champions, more didn't equate to a better player.

Buying stuff might expedite an upgrade, but it was still the player's ability that dictated their success.

You didn't "win" anything for that paid advantage, just some convenience at a premium. My cousin used to be friends with a "rich" kid who was stuck in silver for ages regardless of how much he spent on that game, and that kid was even gifting skins. It was when he got over himself and swallowed a bit of his ego that he finally started to adjust his play and minimize his raging that finally got him to just gold, and that was after years of active play.

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ajo a écrit :

But what's the point of stopping to bloat the loot if no one says anything. People need to speak up if anything is going to happen. If everyone just white knight, things will only get worse, and as some already agree with, loot is getting ridiculous and micromanagement increases.

Besides, removing the pay-to-win aspects entirely eliminates future comedy stunts like Synthesis. Games have gone from worse case scenario with hidden throttling of experience and such, to actually good products as result of complaints. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFXtXbPCd2o mentions some examples I think (not sure if right video). POE seems to be moving backwards.

EA has a patent that matches you with players that own the predicted purchase you are most likely to make in order increase profits. Still this is not offering any advantages for money but people consider that as a horrible thing. My opinion, stash tabs are worse and removing every option to sell advantage should be the aim for all developers.

Item bloat is an issue, and you'll note that the lot of us that have been trying to explain P2W are clearly aware of this growing as an issue.

But some of you wish to include any non cosmetic with a fee under the p2w umbrella. In doing so, you only add to the noise and drown out complaints that people can agree with. If you feel that folks are unreasonable, you're far less likely to value their opinion. Premium tabs offer quite the convenience, but the player's knowledge and understanding of both mechanics and the markets are what truly dictate how much they "win".

EA gets a lot of heat now, but when I was growing up, they were the go to publisher for sports based games. That reputation has eroded so horribly that their public image now is largely perceived of them attempting to use predatory tactics to maximize their monetization. They violated the trust they had established with their customer base, but also continued to do so, almost with an arrogance that its clientele would buy anything.

It's strange how some people assume others will spend on cosmetics and support the game enough so that they should get everything they actually want for free. I know I have a strong aversion to paying extra for a virtual item and cosmetics fall right under that. For the handful of skins I do have in poe, they were either unlocked or included with a support pack - an incentive to go along with the points I desired.

The game allows full access to ALL CONTENT at NO CHARGE, offering the consumer the choice as to how much they feel they want to invest. It's clear that there will always be people that will never be pleased.

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vio a écrit :

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Destructodave a écrit :

That has absolutely nothing to do with it, and just shows you guys keep strawmanning getting caught up on the term, "win."

not strawmanning, it's just different definitions of what's seen as "winning".

if you got a hoarding disorder, "winning" for you means being able to store more items.

if you're unskilled to a point that you have to buy items to reach endgame, you will see premium tabs as pay to win as you need the currency to buy your stuff fast. (remember that exceptional players rarely buy items on their way to red maps.)

if you're skilled and want to win the race to the more important bosses, "winning" means you not burden yourself with alot of micromanagement.


premium tabs give an ingame advantage.
but: only up to a certain amount of tabs and only once cause they're persistent and global.

around 20 premium tabs can be seen as a one time fee to reward the developers for their efforts. that's the way i personally see them.

They give an ingame advantage. That basically means p2w. But again, I own every special page, and god knows how many premiums. I dont actually care that it is p2w. I'm just stating "yea, thats a bit p2w" is all I'm doing. Hell, I'll probably buy some more quad tabs when I play again, becuase those are my favorite tabs.

Its just the clear cut denial of players in this thread as to it being a form of p2w annoys me a bit. It doesnt cheapen the game at all. Damn near every F2p game is pay to win. Most are no where near Korean P2W levels. Most sell stuff just like GGG; just stash tabs, or boosts, or things that arent as egregious as you would find in some Korean MMO. But they are still p2w elements. But thats par for the course in the F2p gaming market.

Also, I dont understand the one-time fee argument. Every other F2p game I play, everything you buy is persistant. Even my mobile games. I own it forever unless its a boost. If I buy a premium pack in Summoners War, and a I pull a Nat 5, hes mine forever. Its not like I'm renting it. If I buy 100 bucks worth of platinum, and buy me 10 warframe slots and various warframes and weapons in Warframe, those are mine forever. One time fee to own all those slots and all those items. If I buy 1000 crystals in Summoners war and buy 200 storage slots for my monsters, those are forever. I could keep going in other games but I think you get my point.

And again, I dont have a problem with it. I've bought all the tabs to support GGG and because I like PoE. I dont have a problem with it. I'm just stating, even as an owner of like 60 freakin tabs + all the special ones, that yea its a smidge p2w. I can admit that, and not give a shit, at the same time.

Also, if I had to give GGG one knock on the entire situation. The fact they dont have a way for players to actually earn them through playing. Almost all other f2p games do allow you to earn their currency through playing. Either from trading with other players for it(Warframe), to time spent just grinding the game(most mobile games), you have ways to earn currency to purchase them from playing. PoE's is 100% behind a paywall, period. It would be nice for them to give some sort of accumulation of their points for logging in every day, or something. After 30 days or 60 days, you get a few dollars worth of points. Overtime, you could buy some pages. This would make it even less p2w than it already is, because as it stands its just 100% behind a paywall.

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Phrazz a écrit :

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Albinosaurus a écrit :

Phrazz, you're conflating legal definitions with colloquial ones and trying to debate the latter by arguments about the former. That's known as an "equivocation" fallacy.

Is "false advertising" a "colloquial term"? I think that touches legal definitions, don't you?

Read what I said again, lol.

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SeCKSEgai a écrit :

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ajo a écrit :

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Phrazz a écrit :

Predatory? How the hell can a one-time purchase of a few dollars that sticks with you forever be viewed as "predatory"? PREDATORY? Smell that words. Is "designing stuff that you are very encouraged to buy" predatory? OK. Predatory would've been forcing you to buy them every league. They may be P2W, but if you view them as predatory you'll have a hard time living your life.

I think that false advertisement alone is predatory. It doesn't really matter what grounds or reasons are behind it when it alone is a predatory thing to do. GGG have always been boasting about their ethical microtransactions and how they will never become pay-to-win. Funny enough, they become more pay-to-win with every league. Meanwhile other free-to-play games like league of legends are much more ethical without the need of funnel tactics like throttling and they don't ever boast about their ethical mtx.

Since I inadvertently saw this...

League of Legends has by far the best free to play model I've the games I've seen. Yet just about everyone claiming tabs are pay to win would consider them also offering pay to win options simply because of their boosts. Yet the only actual pay to win there involves paying actual players themselves to carry or tank their games for you.

At the same time, this sense of "more pay to win" is what I'd refer to them as getting uncomfortably close to the line. Premium tabs by themselves are only predatory to folks who feel entitled to free games. On the other hand, intentionally driving loot to a place where it takes up much more space than it normally needed (like resonators, fossils, fractured items) would definitely be predatory and should have really been the focus of this thread more than anything.

Even though League is my favorite game, by far, I'd still say Warframe's model is the best F2p model I've seen. Mainly because you can actually trade for the same currency they sell for money, which means you can purchase anything in the game as a F2p player. Any skins, MTX, whatever you want. All you have to do is play the game, and trade for platinum from other players, which is easy to do.

I think I got something like 1500 platinum just sitting on my account that I traded for in the 2-3 months I played the game. Thats something like 70-75 dollars worth of currency I can use to buy whatever I want in that game. And all I did to earn it was play the game and trade off prime parts I didn't want. Thats not counting what I did spend of it. Thats just what is sitting there when I no longer need anything.

That would be the equivalent of me playing PoE and being able to buy MTX and stash pages with the currency I earn from trading other players.