A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W

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Xystre a écrit :

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jtggm1985 a écrit :

beaten shaper.

didnt know people had to "beat" (more like play a fotm build) in order to have an opinion..

trolls are supposed to be funny, not your lame low bait.

oh and fuck beating shaper legit by the way, dealing with trade system is already one of the worst experiences any game has to offer out there even on the pure pay to win korean mmo's

so yeah, killing your "shaper" means absolute little to nothing compared to dealing with the real cortex of this game.. the trade.

but again by all means keep your support, supporter.

I agree trade is bad, and I also agree the mechanics of the shaper fight can be beaten buy a 70c geared totemer, which is hardly fotm. I haven't given ggg any money sinc incursion. I was referring to the one who claimed that those who think tabs are p2w has never beaten shaper.

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Albinosaurus a écrit :

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vio a écrit :

just googled,

to compare to this, ggg could make temp leagues subscription based for 30 dollars and grant players participating 10 premium tabs which get deleted after the temp league.

totally no pay to win then! ;)

You must have quite the orchard with those cherry-picking skills! The bonuses provided by that subscription don't affect gameplay. No stat increases, no access to gameplay items that are locked behind a paywall, your heroes don't level up faster than others during a match. Either you did absolutely NO research about what it entails, or you are deliberately attempting to straw-man it. Either way, you're in the wrong.

Edit:
In case it's not clear, the exp mentioned in relation to the subscription is toward out-of-game hero levels which earn you cosmetic shit.

ah, ok. thanks for the correction then. i just googled it, no time for playing 2 games.

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Miská a écrit :

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Belzak55 a écrit :

It doesn't matters whether you can beat the whole game with the 4 base stashes or not... the fact that the game has a feature that let you get an extra advantage over others (in this case, buying more stash tabs) is pay to win. You can spin it any way you want... you can try to come with the worst excuses to white knight GGG, but in the end, having stash tabs on sale is PAY TO WIN, end of the story.

It's actually hilarious seeing all you fanboys trying to desperately defend GGG in any way you can, and when you realize you can't find a way to do it, you retort to insults and such... This is why I love this board so much!

It does matter if you can beat the whole game with 4 stashtabs. The fact is this is not pay to win, end off. See, I can do the same thing.

That is besides the fact that you can get as much free space as you want by simply making mules. Or you know get a job, that will also help.

So you basically ignored everything I said, is in total denial, then proceeded to make an assunption that anyone that doesn't to spend money on PoE = has no job... Fantastic and totally solid argument you got there!

Extra stash tabs are still pay to win, because there's a limit on how many characters you can create, which also means I'd need to buy more slots so I can create more mules. But wait! You're gonna tell me those people can create multiple accounts, right? Sure! This surely means PoE is pay to win, like at all!

[Removed by Support]

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Belzak55 a écrit :

[Removed by Support]

Fool? Fools are people that can't handle people disagreeing with them without turning to "fanboy" and "white knights".

If you can't possibly see that stash tabs are in such a grey area that people will view them differently, I don't know what to say. Living in a bubble? Lack of empathy? Narrow sighted?

I understand it's easier to deem everyone disagreeing with YOU as a "white knight". Good job.

This entire argument seems to have mutated over the course of the thread.

Initially, it read something like "the government is making laws which clamp down on P2W advantages, and if they decide stash-tabs are P2W GGG will lose the ability to sell stash tabs" - which paints a picture of an existential threat to PoE's financial viability.

However, individual beliefs aside it's been stated numerous times that stash tabs (in PoE's case) are *not* P2W. Or at the very least, not P2W in such a way that it would fall under the radar of these type of clampdowns.

For starters, such new legislation is not concerned with game balance inside of a game, or between players. They're not concerned with in-game economies and "fair" game mechanics inside of games. What they're concerned about are predatory exploitative practices which are designed to abuse core groups of vulnerable people for monetary gain - such as underage children and compulsive gamblers.

Path of Exile is not aimed at underaged children. It's aimed at a mature audience of adults. A result of future legislation might mean that GGG may need to take steps to verify it's players ages at some point, but besides that as long as GGG don't actively encourage children specifically to play PoE or buy from it's MTX store they're legally in the clear there.

As far as gamblers are concerned, PoE does sell MTX lootboxes. Regardless of what they contain, those lootboxes have random contents and it is possible you could buy the same MTX several times - which means you got nothing from subsequent lootboxes since for most MTX there's no benefit in rebuying a thing you already have unlocked. So GGG *might* have to remove lootboxes from sale, which isn't a big deal as they could still sell the MTX seperately.

But as I said, this topic has mutated, and it's seemingly no longer about an imminent threat of government action, and how GGG might be able to adapt and keep PoE alive in the face of that, and it's become "I don't want people to be able to buy stash tabs, because legally P2W or not I feel those players have an advantage over me, and I'm going to invoke the news stories about government clampdowns in order to push my point harder to spread fear and panic that might help me get my way".

At this point it's absolutely clear, the OP likely has personal issues with the existance of stash-tabs. Considering how far out of shape the government crackdown is being bent in order to encompass PoE's stash tabs, it's probably fair to say GGG won't be making a change like this off the back of a single thread by a single person who's just pushing far too hard to have the game accomodate his wants and needs above and beyond those of every other player and GGG themselves.

The OP surely will realize his arguments don't hold much weight when put under any serious scrutiny, but is relying on the fact that most of us playing the game aren't lawyers and probably won't immediately see the cracks. Will it bring about any sort of change? No. Will it make people angry, panic, fearful and defensive? Absolutely.

So the way this thread has progressed, I'm really not surprised to see people throw insults around like "get a job" and potentially worse to come. I suspect *that* was the intention all along.

To be provocative, and to incite others.

There's a name for people who make threads or posts on internet forums with the express intent of provoking or inciting... whatever could it be :p

Stash tabs is indeed in gray area.

Having larger bank spaces or backpack slots are considered p2w in many hardcore mmorpgs because you pay cash to save a lot of time.

It's in gray area because it doesn't buy you power or grant you extra contents in game.

Stash tabs in PoE is a time saver, and without a handful of them you are required to go out of your ways to link your stuff on the trade forum where no one looking at, and I have my trade chat disabled since day 1 because how obnoxious it is.

So stash tabs is as much p2w as buying convenience and save time. Similar to many games have traveling stones in games where travelling times adds up. A hearthstone in WoW that let you pick any destination you want (where you can normally get to/been to via traditional travelling) with 0 cooldown as long as you pay would be viewed as P2W to many players, even tho it just saves you time and nothing else.

Stash tabs is only not p2w if we ignore the value of time, and you can keep creating unlimited amount of accounts and access to unlimited of tabs for free and if you want to trade you can manual linking each items you want to sell to the trade forum and bump the post from time to time like the old days and go spam trade chat like many whiteknights arguments is based on.

Stash tabs are both p2w and not p2w at the same time depending on where you are coming from.

Clearly this is a PoE forum, there will be naturally much louder noise defending the existing system than people oppose it.

As an owner of 68 tabs + all specialty tabs, I think tabs are totally p2w for me but it's also acceptable that they exist in this game, as the cost to buy the time saved from the hundreds of hours switching accounts and linking shit to forums and spam trade chat is totally worth it for me and for most people.

Lastly, I bet all these whiteknights that tells you you can make 1000 accounts and get 4000 free tabs and linking all kinds of items to trade forums if you want to trade DO NOT DO THIS themselves, most of them probably never had to do it in their entire PoE life unlike many of us old timers whom was forced to if you want to trade in any meaningful way in this game...

One thing people should learn about American politics is that Representatives (in our larger congressional body) love to propose bills that they know full well will never even be voted on much less passed just to get press and score points with certain brain-dead voters.... there's tons of those.

meh timmys can call names on the internet.. crazy.

if you have to get personal with insults means any sort of constructive answer is lost on this thread and matter so it's easier to get away from the echo chambers to avoid losing IQ further.

stashes seems to bring the worst of the same names.. while I enjoy poking the puppy constantly it gets boring after a while because they turn on their echo chamber.. their stance is clear but they keep parroting until they start to get triggered and start to call you names.

one thing is for sure while my stance will never change regardless this pay to win game I hope it brings light to others that read but never post.

This game doesn't have a Pay to Win problem

This game has a problem with 3D character models looking like complete dog shit. I get GGG isn't as rich as Blizzard but they are very rich these days compared to 2006

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Pewzor a écrit :

Stash tabs is indeed in gray area.

Having larger bank spaces or backpack slots are considered p2w in many hardcore mmorpgs because you pay cash to save a lot of time.

It's in gray area because it doesn't buy you power or grant you extra contents in game.

Stash tabs in PoE is a time saver, and without a handful of them you are required to go out of your ways to link your stuff on the trade forum where no one looking at, and I have my trade chat disabled since day 1 because how obnoxious it is.

So stash tabs is as much p2w as buying convenience and save time. Similar to many games have traveling stones in games where travelling times adds up. A hearthstone in WoW that let you pick any destination you want (where you can normally get to/been to via traditional travelling) with 0 cooldown as long as you pay would be viewed as P2W to many players, even tho it just saves you time and nothing else.

Stash tabs is only not p2w if we ignore the value of time, and you can keep creating unlimited amount of accounts and access to unlimited of tabs for free and if you want to trade you can manual linking each items you want to sell to the trade forum and bump the post from time to time like the old days and go spam trade chat like many whiteknights arguments is based on.

Stash tabs are both p2w and not p2w at the same time depending on where you are coming from.

Clearly this is a PoE forum, there will be naturally much louder noise defending the existing system than people oppose it.

As an owner of 68 tabs + all specialty tabs, I think tabs are totally p2w for me but it's also acceptable that they exist in this game, as the cost to buy the time saved from the hundreds of hours switching accounts and linking shit to forums and spam trade chat is totally worth it for me and for most people.

Lastly, I bet all these whiteknights that tells you you can make 1000 accounts and get 4000 free tabs and linking all kinds of items to trade forums if you want to trade DO NOT DO THIS themselves, most of them probably never had to do it in their entire PoE life unlike many of us old timers whom was forced to if you want to trade in any meaningful way in this game...

You are honestly just repeating the obvious. Things that nobody really disagrees with. What I am trying to get across is that paying a few bucks for a game is acceptable for a small quality of life change. Anyone who disagrees should and can get around that by making some mules. (It's ridiculous to assume you would even need many tabs at all, beggars can't be choosers)

That said, it doesn't mean that making mules is equal to buying stashtabs or that especially the last 2 years buying tabs has been increasingly more difficult to avoid. They bring more qol then ever and with more item bloat they are more needed then ever.

So with that in mind why am I personally still ok with stashtabs. It's simple. I can't reason with anyone who is spending hundreds(or many more) hours into this game and refusing to support this game for no other reason then the game saying it's f2p. Wich for some people seems to mean any money spent is wasted money.

It's time to throw all the naive insights in this thread out of the window and people need to have a good look in the mirror. F2p never ment that it is and should be 100% free forever and always. It's a concept that allows people to play and acces the whole game for free, and if you like it you can contribute to the game. If the penalty to this is a minor inconvenience on item management then so be it. You can't have your cake and eat it.