A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W

My question is, and remains: "Why are you folks so obsessed with 'proving' that Path of Exile is a total P2W Korean-style money grinder?"

You've all stated that you don't actually care if anything changes, you just want the satisfaction of sticking it to the people you really hate - the paying players you all see as too stupid to properly game the system and play for free. Or alternatively, you want Grinding Gear to admit their game is a total P2W Korean-style money grinder without actually changing that.

WHY?

Where is the victory condition in your stance?As I pointed out to Ajo, if everybody in a freemium game decides to 'be smart instead of stupid' and never buy anything, the game dies and nobody gets to play. if you're not angling for a change of some sort, then why try and badmouth the current system?

What is your actual freaking objective here?

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Funinyourgame a écrit :

Is it predatory P2W?
I'm tempted to say no, before Delve league
As I only needed 1 currency tab for the longest time and decided to play a bit of the market on my own (Hence needed the prenium stash for an easier time).

Right now, I'd say yes
Many items being unstackable and having many new items for different recipes makes the regular tabs almost useless. Remember SSF doesn't need those so SSF players are not relevent to the argument.

A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W?
Yes, definitely, but it will not be an issue since part of the game (SSF) can be played without Prenium Stash and placing the game for Mature (If its not already the case) would be all the is needed for GGG to stay safe.

Predatory? How the hell can a one-time purchase of a few dollars that sticks with you forever be viewed as "predatory"? PREDATORY? Smell that words. Is "designing stuff that you are very encouraged to buy" predatory? OK. Predatory would've been forcing you to buy them every league. They may be P2W, but if you view them as predatory you'll have a hard time living your life.

BTW, you can trade as much as you'd like without Premium Tabs, so your last paragraph is sort of useless.

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1453R a écrit :

My question is, and remains: "Why are you folks so obsessed with 'proving' that Path of Exile is a total P2W Korean-style money grinder?"

I can't talk for the others, but I am not trying to place PoE as a Pay to Win game
But it is clear there is Pay to win microtransaction, it is not as bad as people make it sound, but making specific items unstackable unless you pay a specific stash tab, Shards Tab and Map tab for example, and selling them individually instead of adding a lower price bundle isn't great either.

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Phrazz a écrit :

Predatory? How the hell can a one-time purchase of a few dollars that sticks with you forever be viewed as "predatory"?

When you change part of them game to make them almost mandatory isn't what i'd call "fair practice"
Maybe Predatory is a too harsh word. Di**ish might be better suited for it.

I wish all these p2w babies would be banned from using PoE forever. You have no idea what p2w even means, nor have you ever played a real p2w game.

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Destructodave a écrit :

That has absolutely nothing to do with it, and just shows you guys keep strawmanning getting caught up on the term, "win."

not strawmanning, it's just different definitions of what's seen as "winning".

if you got a hoarding disorder, "winning" for you means being able to store more items.

if you're unskilled to a point that you have to buy items to reach endgame, you will see premium tabs as pay to win as you need the currency to buy your stuff fast. (remember that exceptional players rarely buy items on their way to red maps.)

if you're skilled and want to win the race to the more important bosses, "winning" means you not burden yourself with alot of micromanagement.


premium tabs give an ingame advantage.
but: only up to a certain amount of tabs and only once cause they're persistent and global.

around 20 premium tabs can be seen as a one time fee to reward the developers for their efforts. that's the way i personally see them.

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ajo a écrit :

I think that false advertisement alone is predatory.

Yes. You think Stash Tabs are P2W. You think GGG are boasting about their micro transactions. You think that is predatory because of your subjective views on all of those elements.

I'm very glad you used the word "think", because anything else would be idiotic.

I have only seen the use of "ethical micro transactions" or "non-P2W micro transactions" as fairly minor sentences. I have never seen it as a huge part in any advertisement. I have never seen the "boasting" you are talking about, but... Whatever suits your narrative, I guess. Maybe they just disagree with you, and don't consider them P2W? Then all this boasting and false advertisement goes away :P

Do I think stash tabs are P2W? I don't know. I find them to be in a grey area. Do I think it matters? No. Do I think a couple of premium stash tabs should be given to all players? Yes. But I don't think you'll find ANY forum of F2P games where A LOT of non-paying costumers are demanding more, or feel very envious about things they want or feel encourage to buy.

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ajo a écrit :

However if the scenario comes up where the players are "being smart" by not purchasing anything, then you simply have a bad product that isn't worth the price you are asking for it. Perhaps then it's time to rework the product or the marketing strategy.
.

Yes, rework their strategy towards something people actually may want to buy, like stash tabs? :D

ajo, ajo, ajo. The fact that you cannot afford the things you want to buy in the game, doesn't make it more predatory than a newborn kitten. You should work more to acquire the funds to buy your stuff.

And this is true for the other few freaks in this thread who think it is "smart" to pay absolutely no money for a game they have played for years and plan to play in the future. Hint: It is not smart.

The game's homepage, on top of being hilariously out of date (might want to get on that, Grinding Gear), does not talk about the game's monetization scheme at all, good or bad.

The 'Win Fireworks' is literally an April Fool's joke. Holy hell, man.

Now yes - in a statement a year and a half ago Chris said that MTXes in Path of Exile were entirely cosmetic. He was wrong about that, specifically in the case of stash issues. Whether the argument can be made that stash issues were something Grinding Gear pushed players towards or whether stash issues were a player demand Grinding Gear decided to heed (remember, every single Specialty stash tab currently in existence was preceded by threadfuls of players saying 'I would gladly pay twenty or thirty bucks for this without a care in the world!') is a sub-issue. Yes, Chris said that thing, and he was wrong.

First of all: Holding up League of Fucking Legends as a shining example of Truly Ethical Microtransactions is an absolute joke. Ol' LoL gates virtually all of its playable content - i.e. its heroes - behind a revolving paywall. Only a tiny handful of League heroes are freely playable at any time unless you buy them. That's far more of an issue than stash tabs.

Second of all: citing 'predatory business! PREDATORY BUSINESS!' when EA and Activision have the sheer gall to still exist over stash tabs is disingenuous and unhelpful. Again - a far more predatory issue is the ridiculous cost of cosmetic items in this game and the fact that very few of them are available on the lower end of the price spectrum anymore.

Did Chris say the thing when he shouldn't have? Yes. He also sold his company to Chinese Skynet when he shouldn't have. We should call him on both of those things, and he should not claim his MTX store is 'entirely cosmetic' anymore.

But using an April Fool's joke to try and prove your point only undermines everything you're trying to say, man. Come on. You can do better than that.

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1453R a écrit :

I paid for your copy of the game for you. A smidge of respect might be in order, please.

I've been out of this thread a couple days, but I come back and see this. I can't believe someone is naive/stupid/arrogant/ignorant enough to actually believe something like this. It's official, I can never respect this person's opinion again. Doesn't matter what they say.

It's based solely on the idea that "supporter packs" are the only thing people can buy in this game, which is f2p--in a thread about how stash tabs are p2w!

Just... I can't... LMFAO

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ajo a écrit :

Minor sentences? So false advertisement is okay if you use it in minor sentences? It's the lsd example in my previous post all over again. So why go on with it? Are we now arguing for the sake of arguing?

Because your exaggerating and "hyper boling" by using words like "bloating", as if "No P2W" was their main slogan. It's not false advertising just because YOU view Stash Tabs as pay to win. But yes, IF some law said stash tabs are pay to win, then it would be false advertising.