General Discussion - A broad P2W definition in law would paint premium stash tabs P2W - Forum

" Xystre a écrit : switch from f2p to b2p Come on. Even if a game has TONS of P2W, it can still be F2P. F2P has never - and will never - mean; enjoy the game and all it has to offer at the same level as a paying costumer. Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile.	Posté par Phrazz#3529 le 18 mai 2019 à 10:39:33 Citer ce post
" ajo a écrit : " SeCKSEgai a écrit : Stash tabs are not pay-to-win " Miská a écrit : Stash tabs are not pay-to-win Claiming that pay-to-win mechanics somehow need to aid your winning is really a straw man argument. Besides, what would be the meaning to have such term in the first place that couldn't even fit the worst obese examples of pay-to-win? It's all about advantages over your non-paying peers. The mobile industry itself mostly offers "only" timesavers and comfort yet most of them are heavy pay-to-win. Game play has been replaced with short "bursts" of "gaming" until your energy bar causes complete stops that can be unlocked in the microtransaction shop. Such games could then be defended with the straw man "you are theoretically not winning" nonsense argument. Fortunately, the pay-to-win is broader than that. Mobile gaming revolves around minimal investments with maximized profits. The difference is that they just try to push you up the payment ladder as quickly as possible. They are in many cases not even comparable to an actual game but rather just one big funnel into the microtransaction shop. With that said, Pay-to-win is broad and common. It's generally considered more acceptable if you can grind the premium benefits and less so when the benefits are behind a paywall or an excessive amount of grind. Some games tries to annoy the player to move up the payment ladder while others resort to more drastic approaches such as throttling the game. The more paid benefits a game has to offer, the more is such game considered pay-to-win. There is not speed limit on the broad pay-to-win highway. Most games contains some sort of pay-to-win elements and it's up to the devs to balance them between acceptance and profits. Stash tabs has always been pay-to-win but it was a much more acceptable type of pay-to-win in the past. You mistake comfort for necessity. Stash tabs have never been pay to win because they are not a vital part of gameplay in an ARPG. That's not a strawman that's a fact. Now again me and others here can get behind the insane item bloat that has been introduced lately to make this an actual problem but that's about it. When Poe started out this was a complete and uther non issue. Stash space in ARPG's have been limited in general.	Posté par Miská#0911 le 18 mai 2019 à 10:40:40 Citer ce post
" Xystre a écrit : " Miská a écrit : It doesn't matter, storage space in most ARPG's is limited by default. They offer hoarding here for a price. Don't hoard if you wanna leech. ah there you go the passive aggresive comment.. "I'm paying for f2p players, I'm entitled to this, I paid for this.. so I deserve this,don't loot if you don't want to pay because you have a mind of your own and because I refuse to understand another person because on the internet I can be whatever I want I will call you a "leech" " L O - WP L it's cool, your game will still be pay to win. I dunno what other word you would use to describe a person that hasn't spent a penny on a game and played for hundreds of hours entirely for free and then has the audicity to call this game 'required to pay to play'. (I'm not saying this is you, but there are people here exactly that)	Posté par Miská#0911 le 18 mai 2019 à 10:43:27 Citer ce post
at this point I might literally switch to the suppoters side by saying it's not pay to win.. just to turn off the torch so the echo chambers can be echo chambers. don't get excited, I still wont give GGG a single cent.. they are no better than activision atm. "Parade your victories, hide your defeats. Mortals are so insecure." Once you break the cycle of fear no angels or demons can whisper you their sweet nothing words. poe0.2/10. Nuff said.	Posté par Xystre#4581 le 18 mai 2019 à 10:46:04 Citer ce post
when they introduced premium tabs, the game has been in a different state. substantially fewer sellable rare items dropped, the argument of "make a mule to store them" and "use the forums to sell them" was valid. things changed, you get good rare items thrown after you immediately after you entered a map, those items are too good to be vendored but maybe only make 1 to 2 chaos. ggg knows this and intentionally makes if uncomfortable to sell alot of 1c items, you hardly get to play the game after you filled 5 quads with them. to break out of this constellation will be a hard one, any solution will piss off a certain percentage of players. age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill!	Posté par vio#1992 le 18 mai 2019 à 11:51:21 Membre Alpha Citer ce post
" ajo a écrit : Just because a game is "labeled" free-to-play doesn't mean that it actually is. Is this really so hard to understand? What seems hard to understand - for you - is that the term "F2P" has NEVER meant "no P2W elements". Never. Hell, "most" F2P games has way more P2W elements than PoE. F2P does not mean "not P2W". PoE IS free. 100% free. Do you get advantages from Stash Tabs? Maybe. Are they required? FAR FROM. Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile. Dernière édition par Phrazz#3529, le 18 mai 2019 à 12:13:08	Posté par Phrazz#3529 le 18 mai 2019 à 12:11:54 Citer ce post
" ajo a écrit : " Phrazz a écrit : ... I'm just going to avoid your stupid arguments from now on. I know I said it earlier but I really going to now. You can argue with Nemo's and point out why he is wrong as said earlier. I leave it to the readers to decide if stash tabs can be classified as pay-to-win or not. I mean, I'm ready to be convinced by a strong argument and my mind is ready to be blown. Nonsense like your full fledged denial are not making things easy. With that said, your statement would mean that a demo could also be classified as an entirely free product. If any amount of pay-to-win, throttling or limitations is allowed in a "free" product, then any amount of limitations or throttling in a demo could be seen as the free version of the the same retail product. Praise Adobe for offering Photoshop for free I guess. In the end does it really matter if stashtabs are p2w? You say yes I say no. What really matters is we can do something about the item bloat together, non p2w believers and p2w believers. But you gotta drop the radical belief that this game is the worst example of p2w you have ever encountered in the history of gaming. Stashtabs don't make ARPG's, they never have. Wich is exactly why GGG refuses to label them as P2W. About the item bloat and more stashtabs becoming a necessity because of how the game evolved in the last year. I can agree to that. But that's a cause to effect, wich can be solved without having to brand stash tabs as p2w.	Posté par Miská#0911 le 18 mai 2019 à 12:38:17 Citer ce post
" ajo a écrit : ... Are you seriously mixing up the terms "free product" and "F2P"? Ok. I think we're better off you ignoring me, because you have no clue. No matter how we label stash tabs, PoE is a F2P game. And a demo? What are you talking about? That's... What? You can PLAY, BEAT and ENJOY PoE in its entirety without paying a dime. Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile. Dernière édition par Phrazz#3529, le 18 mai 2019 à 13:12:50	Posté par Phrazz#3529 le 18 mai 2019 à 13:05:56 Citer ce post
" ajo a écrit : You can do most things but at a disadvantage compared to the paid version. Same with a lot of demos. So what's the difference except that a demo is being honest about being a limited version? Same shit, different name. No. You can't just do "most" things. You can do everything. Yes, you may be at a disadvantage - but so are you in 9/10 F2P games, if you work hard enough to fit it into your narrative. Anyhow, F2P games with TONNES of P2W elements are still F2P games. F2P does not - by ant means - mean "free product". Especially not following today's "mainstream definitions" as you so tightly hold dear when talking about "P2W". If you're using "a demo" as a stupid comparison just for me to state the obvious; a demo is just a part of the game. A small part. A tiny part. PoE without stash tabs is still the whole game. Every boss. Every level. Every item. You are not at a "disadvantage" in a demo. You're cut off from the majority of the game. You are going down a VERY stupid road right now, because you show that you have no idea what you're talking about. You may be right when it comes to stash tabs being P2W. I don't care. But that fact does not - by any means - make PoE less of a "F2P" game. Search your phone for "F2P" games and give me the statistics on how many of them haven't got P2W elements. F2P is NOT the same as a "free product". Never has been the same. Never will be the same. Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile. Dernière édition par Phrazz#3529, le 18 mai 2019 à 14:13:51	Posté par Phrazz#3529 le 18 mai 2019 à 14:12:55 Citer ce post
" Phrazz a écrit : " Xystre a écrit : switch from f2p to b2p Come on. Even if a game has TONS of P2W, it can still be F2P. F2P has never - and will never - mean; enjoy the game and all it has to offer at the same level as a paying costumer. DotA 2 says "hi." Tired of trolls? Ignore them. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1473168	Posté par Albinosaurus#7360 le 19 mai 2019 à 03:18:12 Citer ce post