General Discussion - Auction house - Forum

" RPGlitch a écrit : " jtggm1985 a écrit : You misunderstand me. I don't care how many games balance drops around trade, the concept of balancing around trade is the fallacy, and nearly every designer does it. Or the reality is that games have to be balanced around trade, and you have no idea what you are talking about. If I had to choose between believing you and all the other games on the market, their developers, QA testers, and players who find those games fun enough to play, despite being hindered by trade in one way or another. I'd take their opinion over yours. Because, honestly most of the world disagrees with you. It's not a fallacy. You are just wrong. Games have to be balanced around whatever trade system they have or they fail. " And you really shouldn't balance CRAFTING on RNG to boot. Crafting is made RNG heavy because its a currency-sink for the top bell-curve of players/traders and has to be made with trading in mind. (as a useless item for you, can be useful for someone else.) It's not there to simply frustrate you, but a way to let players obtain gear in a slow and steady manner instead of obtaining quickly, and burning out. Is there other ways to let players obtain gear slowly? Yes, there is. But none of it by making 'trading' easy or even available. " Trade can be easy and drops can be balanced without it, both are possible and not exclusive, nor should they be. If this was true, there would be a game that does exactly what you are talking about, that doesn't balance drops around easy trade. Can you name that game? Or will you admit you have the wrong idea on how trade works, because your idea fails 100% of the time? That's just it, they don't have to, they choose to, to create an artificial difficulty, while giving the unsatisfied a minor outlet for their anger about their bad luck with trade. I don't have the wrong idea, those who manipulate games into RNG shitfests like this game is, do. The one thing I will give D3 credit for, is that crafting (either rerolling or new base crafting) doesn't rely on something that you can't find in a targeted fashion. So even if you're on the bottom of the curve you at least have a chance. If you want a game to be fun and challenging, you make the encounters fun and challenging, you don't gate your players behind 20 layers of odds. When you do that, your players leave after a month. You can claim all you want that I have no idea, but you would be wrong. I've written and sold adventure campaigns for wizards of the coast when I was just a nerdy teenager playing tabletop in my high school game club. Admittedly not quite the same, but close enough. I know how trade works both in this game and many others. The point is it doesn't have to work that way, but people are too blind by devspeak and false equivalency to see it. Even if everyone could have an instant buyout shot at a kaom's heart, it'd still cost multiple exalted to get one because it's rare. It'd still cost several multiples of exalteds to get a headhunter. Item values in games like these are determined by several factors, rarity and power chief among them. If they made an instant buyout market for anything, it wouldn't change the values, making them more plentiful in the game from increased drops does, as does decreasing the drops raise their cost. Just because you can get something easier through trade doesn't mean you can afford it. Finally, here's a nautilus article about the games industry engeineering luck into their games as a false measure of challenge. http://nautil.us/issue/70/variables/how-designers-engineer-luck-into-video-games-rp	Posté par jtggm1985#3694 le 22 juin 2019 à 07:43:14 Citer ce post
They make their money by keeping us interested in playing their game. Wanting stuff is what keeps us interested. Anything that removes that "want" is bad for the game and bad for business. One reason you want items is that you can trade them... so they can't remove trade. Another reason you want items is because it makes your character stronger, so they can't make trade "easy". We're playing their game, and wouldn't be playing it if they put in an AH.	Posté par Shagsbeard#3964 le 22 juin 2019 à 07:51:15 Citer ce post
" jtggm1985 a écrit : That's just it, they don't have to, they choose to, to create an artificial difficulty, while giving the unsatisfied a minor outlet for their anger about their bad luck with trade. All games, have to combat the inequality that trading brings into a loot-based game or risk devaluing items in the market. It's not artificial difficulty, but an integral part the problems an online game has to deal with to become successful. Again, if it was a choice and not a requirement, you'd be able to name an online game that does trading the way you think it could be done. It can't be that hard for you to give an example if you are right. Or admit you are wrong because literally nobody does it your way. " You can claim all you want that I have no idea, but you would be wrong. I've written and sold adventure campaigns for wizards of the coast when I was just a nerdy teenager playing tabletop in my high school game club. Admittedly not quite the same, but close enough. It's not close, and I'll explain why. You are talking about a table-top game with a group of 3-7 people who meet-up maybe once or twice a week to sit down in a circle to play for a couple of hours. This isn't the same thing as trading with thousands of players online who spend 6-8 hours trading items back and forth and accumulating vast amounts of wealth in a few days. The character progression is different, the loot tables are different, the balance between classes, and the amount of wealth that can be generated through trading on a table-top game is limited. Also, Wizards of the Coast released an online game called Dungeons and Dragons, which limits trade to 1 auction per free account and 50 per paid account. Maybe, you don't get that you are wrong, but pretty much everyone else sees that you have no clue on how trade works. " Item values in games like these are determined by several factors, rarity and power chief among them. If they made an instant buyout market for anything, it wouldn't change the values, making them more plentiful in the game from increased drops does, as does decreasing the drops raise their cost. Just because you can get something easier through trade doesn't mean you can afford it. You missed the point of easier trades, easier trades allows a player to trade in a useless item for a useful item. That's the essential core of what makes trade so much more efficient than normal grinding. Take the example of two players, one of which can trade and the other cannot trade. " Player 1 - Cyclone Essence Drain Drop (Useless, because Player 1 is playing Cyclone) Player 2 - Essence Drain Cyclone Drop (Useless, because Player 2 is playing Essence Drain) " Player 1 - Cyclone Essence Drain Drop -> (trades with Player 2) Cyclone Drop Player 2 - Essence Drain Cyclone Drop -> (trades with Player 1) Essence Drain Drop. You see now? That's why the drop rates are low, since trading makes every thing that drops potentially useful for a player. It's not that its a RNG fest, but that people are literally creating value out of shit that would otherwise be useless for them. So, GGG has to lower the loot table so that people get gear at a rate, as if trading didn't exist, or risk burning out their players. That's why I keep telling you, you have no clue how trading works. You have a no understanding of what makes trading so much more efficient at gaining loot. (⌐■_■)	Posté par RPGlitch#6206 le 22 juin 2019 à 18:09:49 Citer ce post
" Finally, here's a nautilus article about the games industry engeineering luck into their games as a false measure of challenge. http://nautil.us/issue/70/variables/how-designers-engineer-luck-into-video-games-rp PoE is not a game heavily based in luck. You often bypass luck entirely in the game, because you can trade in your bad (drops) for good (drops). You are making a false comparison. (⌐■_■)	Posté par RPGlitch#6206 le 22 juin 2019 à 18:19:18 Citer ce post
" RPGlitch a écrit : " jtggm1985 a écrit : That's just it, they don't have to, they choose to, to create an artificial difficulty, while giving the unsatisfied a minor outlet for their anger about their bad luck with trade. All games, have to combat the inequality that trading brings into a loot-based game or risk devaluing items in the market. It's not artificial difficulty, but an integral part the problems an online game has to deal with to become successful. Again, if it was a choice and not a requirement, you'd be able to name an online game that does trading the way you think it could be done. It can't be that hard for you to give an example if you are right. Or admit you are wrong because literally nobody does it your way. " You can claim all you want that I have no idea, but you would be wrong. I've written and sold adventure campaigns for wizards of the coast when I was just a nerdy teenager playing tabletop in my high school game club. Admittedly not quite the same, but close enough. It's not close, and I'll explain why. You are talking about a table-top game with a group of 3-7 people who meet-up maybe once or twice a week to sit down in a circle to play for a couple of hours. This isn't the same thing as trading with thousands of players online who spend 6-8 hours trading items back and forth and accumulating vast amounts of wealth in a few days. The character progression is different, the loot tables are different, the balance between classes, and the amount of wealth that can be generated through trading on a table-top game is limited. Also, Wizards of the Coast released an online game called Dungeons and Dragons, which limits trade to 1 auction per free account and 50 per paid account. Maybe, you don't get that you are wrong, but pretty much everyone else sees that you have no clue on how trade works. " Item values in games like these are determined by several factors, rarity and power chief among them. If they made an instant buyout market for anything, it wouldn't change the values, making them more plentiful in the game from increased drops does, as does decreasing the drops raise their cost. Just because you can get something easier through trade doesn't mean you can afford it. You missed the point of easier trades, easier trades allows a player to trade in a useless item for a useful item. That's the essential core of what makes trade so much more efficient than normal grinding. Take the example of two players, one of which can trade and the other cannot trade. " Player 1 - Cyclone Essence Drain Drop (Useless, because Player 1 is playing Cyclone) Player 2 - Essence Drain Cyclone Drop (Useless, because Player 2 is playing Essence Drain) " Player 1 - Cyclone Essence Drain Drop -> (trades with Player 2) Cyclone Drop Player 2 - Essence Drain Cyclone Drop -> (trades with Player 1) Essence Drain Drop. You see now? That's why the drop rates are low, since trading makes every thing that drops potentially useful for a player. It's not that its a RNG fest, but that people are literally creating value out of shit that would otherwise be useless for them. So, GGG has to lower the loot table so that people get gear at a rate, as if trading didn't exist, or risk burning out their players. That's why I keep telling you, you have no clue how trading works. You have a no understanding of what makes trading so much more efficient at gaining loot. It's a difference of scale, but not principle. In both, a random number is rolled to determine drops, and I've even ran my games where players could trade with other groups throughout the entire club, which was 30 people, not all of them overseen by me. You can't flat out trade a useless for you item with someone for a useful item on a 1 to 1 basis because there's different intrinsic values based on rarity, comparative power, how desirable the item is to the general populace. The reason why drops don't have to be balanced around trade is because (the exception being currency divination cards) things aren't valued at the same rate. And yes, the game is an RNG fest. I've literally never dropped a mirror, but several of my guildmates with less time invested have. Any time you kill a mob, a number is rolled to determine what if anything you get. It's rng whether or not you crit, or if you're melee without Rt whether or not you hit. It can be manipulated, and the devs frequently do manipulate it. Not all RNG is bad though, because it does create challenges for the player, whether or not they crit etc to shorten a fight. However, trade is in this game for two reasons, to make your items feel like they're valuable even though they aren't, and to give you a shot at getting the item that just won't drop for you. They don't have to lower droprates just because you can trade an item away, the vendor fodder would still be vendor fodder just like it is now. Itemization in this game can range from oh this is just what I needed, to why is this even a mod, to omg that's broken. Literally even a ilevel 1 item can fall into any of those categories. The higher the ilevel, the more likely it is to fall into the first and last categories. Hence why people want to run t16 maps, to minimize the chance of the why bother drops. If you tried to trade a 1/0q essence drain for a 1/0q cyclone on a 1 to 1 basis you'd get laughed out of town. What gives items their value is rarity, power, and desirability, not trade. Trade shouldn't even factor into drop rate equations at all.	Posté par jtggm1985#3694 le 23 juin 2019 à 06:58:07 Citer ce post
Its funny how those topics explode and nobody cares that discussion is futile. GGG said no and they wont change their mind. They cant do that because there is nothing worse then company that goes back on its word. Whats even more important 2 of the most influential people in GGG said that they would like to make it even harder and they did that multiple times. NPC that sells everything is not going to happen, ever. Deal with it.	Posté par kuciol#0426 le 23 juin 2019 à 07:38:41 Citer ce post
it would be good. i dont care if ggg said no ; they change their minds all the time :) they once said we'd never have over-head monster healthbars but we ended up getting it anyways!	Posté par teksuoPOE#2987 le 23 juin 2019 à 09:36:01 Citer ce post
I'm tired of alt-tabbing and whispering for trade in this game. I play the game windowed because of it. We already have poe.trade. Just make an in game auto item sell mechanic. Call it auction house or whatever you want, but just make trade automatic and easier. Enough is enough. Dernière édition par Cihondar#3042, le 23 juin 2019 à 09:40:02	Posté par Cihondar#3042 le 23 juin 2019 à 09:39:43 Citer ce post
This game surely has changed a lot. We used to have garage trading in beta. A game which was much, much slower: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/75527 A part from me wants that back (just as Chris Wilson) Sadly nowadays exiles want: Spoiler And I have a feeling GGG will cave in because of all the crybabies. Heart of Purity Awarded 'Silverblade' to Talent Competition Winner 2020. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDFO4E5OKSE I am one of the rare fair players/collectors. Dernière édition par Reinhart#6743, le 23 juin 2019 à 11:41:40	Posté par Reinhart#6743 le 23 juin 2019 à 11:37:37 Citer ce post
" teksuoPOE a écrit : it would be good. i dont care if ggg said no ; they change their minds all the time :) they once said we'd never have over-head monster healthbars but we ended up getting it anyways! Except they didnt. There are only 2 things they said will never be in game : gold and auction house. What they should do i grow a pair and remove public stash tabs and start from scratch. Everything must be balance around this piece of shit now even trade improvements. Thats the major offender here and needs to go.	Posté par kuciol#0426 le 23 juin 2019 à 11:50:54 Citer ce post