Auction house

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jtggm1985 a écrit :

It's a difference of scale, but not principle. In both, a random number is rolled to determine drops, and I've even ran my games where players could trade with other groups throughout the entire club, which was 30 people, not all of them overseen by me.

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You can't flat out trade a useless for you item with someone for a useful item on a 1 to 1 basis because there's different intrinsic values based on rarity, comparative power, how desirable the item is to the general populace.

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They don't have to lower droprates just because you can trade an item away, the vendor fodder would still be vendor fodder just like it is now.

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And yes, the game is an RNG fest. I've literally never dropped a mirror, but several of my guildmates with less time invested have.

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Cihonidas a écrit :

I'm tired of alt-tabbing and whispering for trade in this game. I play the game windowed because of it. We already have poe.trade. Just make an in game auto item sell mechanic. Call it auction house or whatever you want, but just make trade automatic and easier. Enough is enough.

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kuciol a écrit :

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teksuoPOE a écrit :

it would be good. i dont care if ggg said no ; they change their minds all the time :)

they once said we'd never have over-head monster healthbars but we ended up getting it anyways!

Except they didnt. There are only 2 things they said will never be in game : gold and auction house. What they should do i grow a pair and remove public stash tabs and start from scratch. Everything must be balance around this piece of shit now even trade improvements. Thats the major offender here and needs to go.

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j33bus a écrit :

Actually they also said they would never have item allocation and yet here we are.

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RPGlitch a écrit :

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jtggm1985 a écrit :

It's a difference of scale, but not principle. In both, a random number is rolled to determine drops, and I've even ran my games where players could trade with other groups throughout the entire club, which was 30 people, not all of them overseen by me.

They are two different games at principle, because the goal of a DnD campaign is to give players a good interactive story, while the goal of online games like PoE is to give players loot to build up their character.

In PoE it is acceptable to grind for hours, the same maps, for drops to improve your character.

In DnD campaigns, its unacceptable, for players to grind for hours the same area for drops they can then trade for items.

You are dealing with two fundamentally different sets of problems.

Also, you have a huge misunderstanding on how trading works in both games.

In DnD, its not a problem if you are trading between people who are at a similar parts in the story, because the relative power of all their items will be the same.

It does become an issue when items are available at the end of a campaign are put on a market for players starting a campaign, which is what happens in PoE and other online games.

In PoE you have a few people who burst far and beyond the rest of the pack, hit maps, hit shaper, with limited trading, on day 1, and dump all the rest of the items they can't use into the market.

This then allows the second wave of players, those slower at the game, to obtain maps, items, and other loot that drops from high level areas to help them progress through the game.

This kind of top down trading simply does not happen in DnD campaigns because it'd ruin many of the campaigns because people would get overpowered weapons early.

Also, trade limitations are applied differently in a DnD campaign than an online game.

In an DnD campaign, if you buy an apple for example.

At one town, it may cost 5 copper. And another town it may cost 10 copper.

If you were able to make an instant transaction (auction house) you could get yourself 10 gold profit by mass buying apples.

So? What does a GM do to prevent a person from buying a town, all the guards, and everything possible with money?

Well, he could limit how many apples you buy (limit trade).

Make you wait and travel between towns (limits trade)

Tell the NPC to not let you buy it (limits trade)

Make every apple cost the same so you can't manipulate the market
(limits trade).

Make the person not get to a town (because they are in a dungeon) so they can't instantly trade any of their loot.

GMs make it impossible for trade to accumulate the vast amounts of wealth it can do in an online game, so you never experience the inequality that trading actually does in reality.

So, if you are living in a fantasy, where trading is killed before it can get out of hand. Then yeah, drop rates don't have to be balanced around it, because trading doesn't even exist. Its pretty much superfluous at that point.

Unfortunately, that's not how the real world works, which is why all online games have to balance drop rates with their trade market. It has to work without a GM constantly obliterating all the inequality whenever it happens.

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You can't flat out trade a useless for you item with someone for a useful item on a 1 to 1 basis because there's different intrinsic values based on rarity, comparative power, how desirable the item is to the general populace.

Yeah, you can flat out trade useless items for someone's useful items, because you trade in items for chaos and turn that chaos into a 1 to 1 trade.

Chao's Recipe -> 50 Chaos
Kaom's Heart -> 200 Chaos
Chayula's Presence -> 300 Chaos
Extra Maps -> 500 chaos

Total: 1050 Chaos

1050 Chaos -> Crafted Essence Drain Wand (1 to 1 trade)

Trading turns items into value, which you use to buy items you need. What prevents people from accumulating too much value, is how fast you can complete the TRADE and the DROP RATE (how available the item is).

If you can't turn Kaom's Heart -> (I can't trade it) 200 Chaos

You don't get that extra 200 chaos.

If nobody has a CRAFTED ESSENCE DRAIN WAND

You can't trade your 1050 chaos for it.

Its why we have all these trade limitations on a broad spectrum for all the games. It's an integral problem to game design. You can't have people be turning junk -> items all the time.

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They don't have to lower droprates just because you can trade an item away, the vendor fodder would still be vendor fodder just like it is now.

First, you have the wrong idea of what vendor fodder is. Vendor fodder includes anything you want to sell to someone else or gear you can't use.

A Kaom's Heart cost 2-3 exalts, but guess what? Its vendor fodder for people who don't use life builds because they can't use it. What's the point of a Kaom's Heart if you are playing pure ES? You can't wear it? You can't do anything with that shit, but sell it. Its vendor fodder.

I don't get why you think vendor fodder are only useless items for everyone. It includes all items, that you don't find valuable for yourself.

So, now that we understand that not all vendor fodder is useless for everyone.

The drop rates have to take into account that some items that drop have an inherent value to the trading system.

For example, if you drop an Kaom's Heart, that value is roughly 300~ chaos give or take a few exalts. If you trade it in, you are at least a few exalts richer now, right?

So, the drop rates have to act as if every 500-5000 monsters kills, whenever it drops a Kaom's Heart, that you, the player has 300 more chaos because that's what you get when you sell it.

Because that's what you can trade it for. You can trade that Kaom's Heart for chaos and now buy whatever you want with that 300 chaos.

You didn't JUST drop a Kaom's Heart. The game dropped, a belt with triple resistance, two rings with the right prefixes, a good boot, and a good amulet.

Cause that's what you can trade it for.

That's not a lot of RNG, if every few thousand monster kills, you literally can trade one or several items that are useless for your build, for everything you could ever want.

Maybe, you want to lower the drop rate of those valuable vendor trash items so people aren't finished gearing their characters? What? Drop rates aren't related to trading?

You see how ridiculous that sounds?

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And yes, the game is an RNG fest. I've literally never dropped a mirror, but several of my guildmates with less time invested have.

Pure RNG doesn't explain the vast wealth inequality that happens at the start of every new league. Yes, you have a few people with lucky drops, but over the first week or so.

You see the same people with 5000 chaos + multiple exalts & a few mirrors.

Guess why? Its because of trading, because on the xbox and playstation where trading is made a lot harder.

You get nobody with that much currency after a new league starts because trading for valuable items is practically impossible.

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jtggm1985 a écrit :

I take it you've never played a truly freeform DnD campaign then, because I've had players buy out a whole town and send them en masse to a cave to be sacrificed by vampires who summoned bosses.

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And no offense, this game doesn't drop a kaom's or even the 2 resistance rares or the good amulet or the good boot every 5,000 kills.

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If you relied solely on the RNG shitfest you'd be lucky to be in Yellows by the end of day 2, even if you cleared the acts in 4 hours.
Edited: Typo

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RPGlitch a écrit :

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jtggm1985 a écrit :

I take it you've never played a truly freeform DnD campaign then, because I've had players buy out a whole town and send them en masse to a cave to be sacrificed by vampires who summoned bosses.

Your free-form DnD campaign is already balanced around trading.

You made trading useless, because nobody can buy anything that gives them an advantage.

It doesn't matter if you buy towns, because you have vampires that can kill entire towns.

It doesn't matter if you buy guards, because you have bosses that can kill all the guards.

You did exactly what I said GMs do which is to kill trading before it gets out of hand.

You killed trading by making everything that you can buy useless.

This isn't what happens in normal DnD campaigns and pretty much all online games.

Because in reality, trading actually gives you something valuable, not cannon fodder for your campaign.

What about the example where DnD players in a low level dungeon can now buy entire cities and guards and kill all the monsters in the cave because they don't have a GM spawning city-killing vampires left and right?

What about MMOs where you can give high level gear to low level players and let them beat the game 5x faster like in PoE.

Your reasoning fails when you apply any real logic to it.

Why do you think you are right about trading, when you take a very small aspect of a campaign you played, and think it applies to a wide spectrum of games?

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And no offense, this game doesn't drop a kaom's or even the 2 resistance rares or the good amulet or the good boot every 5,000 kills.

The actual drop rate for Kaom's is probably 1 out of a million or somewhere along those numbers.

Its ridiculous low and I was explaining the reason for the low rate to you so you wouldn't be a fool, who thought it was there for no reason except to frustrate players with RNG.

The number wasn't important.

The point was to show you that trading allows people to act like NPC Vendors that exchange loot for value (items -> chaos/exalts -> items). And since you can potentially obtain a ridiculous amount of value from other players. GGG has to lower the drop rates to compensate.

So (item -> chaos/exalts -> items) is more like

items -> (trading sucks) chaos/exalts -> (only if it drops for me) items

Also, its not like Kaom's is the only valuable drop you can trade.

After a few dozen maps, your drops tend to look like this. A long list of items you can turn into chaos.

Your Drops:
Divination Card
Good Ring
Good Ring
Okay Ring
Good Leveling Ring
Okay Belt
Okay Unique
Okay Unique
Good Unique
Map
Map
Map
Chaos
Good Base Bow
Bow
Unique Bow
Belt
Boots
Boots with 2 Resist
Divination Card
Map
Good Unique
Good Unique
Bad Unique
Vaal Orb
Unique Map
Okay Helmet
Bad Helmet
Good Helmet

All of which can be traded to other players, who have similar valuable garbage, that you can use.

For example, the average rate for people with a decent build farming white maps is 100+ chaos per hour.

A streamer did the farming on poor 5-linked gear and went step by step all that dropped and its worth.

At least half of that value, is stored in items, which have to be traded.

Basically, 100,000+ players are playing the game, removing every bad drop in PoE from RNG, and selling useful items on the market that anyone can buy.

It's practically wiped most RNG out of obtaining drops when the game simply becomes who can collect the most chaos (TRADE) and wait long enough for people to (DROP) the item to buy.

So, GGG has to increase the RNG of drops further to prevent the chance of those people from completely gearing up from all the trading.

Its not RNG simply to piss people off. Its RNG because the trading system completely removes a huge amount of RNG from the drop rate. So, the drop rate has to be lowered so people still progress through the game at a steady rate.

Because trading turns a huge number of drops into -> chaos (value).

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If you relied solely on the RNG shitfest you'd be lucky to be in Yellows by the end of day 2, even if you cleared the acts in 4 hours.
Edited: Typo

You can watch streamers play since day 1.

Many of them get no help and simply trade maps to hit Shaper. Again, trading kills all the RNG. You don't even need a group, just someone willing to sell you the 4 guardian maps.

They are also the same people with multiple mirrors. It isn't just that they run in groups (many of them don't) its that the most successful ones know how to trade in bulk, and manipulate the market.

You get far more chaos per hour doing bulk trades then you can ever farm with a large party of people once you get enough currency.

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jtggm1985 a écrit :

Addendum: I only ever "gear up" once per toon, and that's when I hit maps and buy my res/movespeed/build enabling uniques. after that whatever build I'm playing is complete. I know I'm an anomaly in that respect slightly, but there are far more players that play that way than GGG thinks.

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Shagsbeard a écrit :

They point out correctly that "easy trade" of any form would ruin the sense of progression in the game, and without that the game would be pretty much dead.

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People play the game in hope of finding gear that improves on what they have.

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If they added an AH or other form of easy trade, they would have to pretty much scrap the idea that drops are worth looking at.

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The game would simply become a grind for currency to purchase gear.

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That would cause them to lose sales of stash tabs. People just wouldn't need to save stuff anymore.