Chris Wilson defends instant logout with all the wrong excuses

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SudianX a écrit :

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Boem a écrit :

How does a person log out against a one-shot?

What relevance does log-out have to do when talking about one-shots?

Think about it from the perspective of the game designer:
"How do I kill a player who can instantly alt-f4?"

Huge damage spikes that players cannot react to fast enough! (One-shots, or multiple hits in less than half a second)

These inconsistent, and thus surprising, huge damage spikes are perceived to be included in the game because of the player's ability to instantly log out.

Most people do not have a problem with instant logging out so much as a problem with the damage spikes.

Spoiler

If GGG added a logout timer / tp timer I assume it would go the same way as with Vaal pact... they would leave all of the damage spikes as is, or maybe increase them. Derp

Here is my issue with this stance, have you created a tank in this game? Did you balance offense vs defense in your builds?

And i'm not talking about 80% lifeM investment builds.

There is almost no spike damage in this game if you build defensive properly. Dominus in maps with "touch of god" deals like 5k damage if you counter build it defensively.(and thats a telegraphed move designed to "on"-hit ko")

The only spike damage currently with a potential to kill players are Aoe overlapping stacks.(which also have counters defensively)

All i see is a player-base coming out of a "18k ES" and "vaal pact ubber alles" meta and now over-reacting that the game actually try's to kill you if you take those cheese ways out of the game.

Well yeah, content is designed to kill you, duh?

Spike damage is almost non-existent and when it happens you can easily predict it's event with
game-knowledge and either engage with it actively(player skill) or passively (stack defensive layers).

Peace,

-Boem-

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allbusiness a écrit :

Because I have survived bad instances because of logout? Sometimes players misread a situation and are able to correct that by being able to correctly identify that now is the time to logout or death is imminent. Not everyone can identify every situation perfectly, nor can you always build perfectly unless you do some dumb super tank build that does 0 dps.


Why someone is trying to argue regarding logout and doesn't either push to 100 or play HC is beyond me. You've never had to play situations where you had to logout because you don't play situations where you need to logout. When you do, you'll find that logging out is extremely beneficial, and that you'd be dumb not to logout.

so you say that logging out saved you, because you lack the player-skill(game knowledge) to accurately interpret a dangerous situation?

How does that counter my argument.

and supper tank with 0 dps?

1) no dps in the current game state, are you being ridiculous just for the sake of it now, i'd have to go out of my way in the current game state to not have dps.
2) again black and white, just like i pointed out before you don't realize how shifting parameters work. Either one or the other, a middle ground is dangerous i know.

And then come the fallacy's, attacking the person to somehow make your lack of arguments less bothersome?

1) pushing to 100 is boring to me, i can do it, but it's just a time investment which isn't worth it to me
2) i'm from EU, so i don't have a static IP address. I played hardcore for two years and then opted out cause i found it pointless to be ranked in the top 50 and then die to my isp provider deciding i need a new IP.
3) just for funsies, softcore players play a lot more dangerous content then hardcore, so a log-out macro is actually more beneficial there. A hardcore player actively goes out of it's way to repeat easy content to disable danger as opposed to softcore players.
Lol people in softcore also use the log-out macro who are you fooling exactly with the "hardcore reigns supreme in difficulty" attitude.

You convince yourself a softocre player at lvl 98 in a dangerous situation is less motivated to use
log-out in a difficult situation compared to a hardcore player?

Content would be boring if they removed log-out and the current value's of damage, since it's already possible to negate them in the current game state.

Peace,

-Boem-

Wow, wish I had the time to post during the day, cause you guys went off on quite a tangent.

Let's rewind a bit (a lot):

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

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suszterpatt a écrit :

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

The idea that the games damage is balanced around logging out, with the implication that the damage levels are somehow unreasonable and require logging out, I dont fully buy into that.

Despite the fact that Qarl has explicitly said so?

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Qarl a écrit :

Of course we balance knowing players will Alt-F4 out of there.

where did qarl say that damage levels are unreasonable and require logging out? Read what I actually wrote.

I never meant to imply that damage levels are unreasonable, becuse that's a) highly subjective and b) completely besides the point.

See, my contention with the oneshot meta is not that it makes the game difficult. I don't mind a difficult game, and it's entirely possible to make a difficult game without oneshots. My contention is that it severely limits the game's design.

Chris wants to allow instant logout, but he also wants to make fights dangerous. With instant logout, the only reliable way to kill players is to do it so quickly that they don't even have time to press one button. So now every dangerous encounter needs oneshots to be dangerous, and once you're done adding those, just how much more resources will you spend on other mechanics that you know will be ineffective? And so all encounters become essentially the same: some oneshot skills you need to avoid, and some ineffective skills you can ignore.

On the player side, because oneshots are everywhere, defenses that are bad at protecting against them become marginalized. Essentially, every build's survivability boils down to one question: "how much damage can I take before I can instalog?". Dealing with the consequences of taking that damage becomes irrelevant, because as long as you survive, there are no consequences after you've logged (apart from one less portal).


A game balanced around a logout timer would open up whole new possibilities both for enemy design, and for player builds. You could have bosses with dangerous DoT effects you need to outregen/outleech. You could have low HP, low mitigation builds that survive solely on stacking regen and leech. There's a whole new world of possibilities out there, and the only reason we can't explore it is because players can go "nope, not dealing with this" at any time with no repercussions.

I support the removal of Instant Logout.

There might be some legit circumstances where it would be usefull, but 98% of the time people exploit it to make up for their poor play.

Portals exist, use those.

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TrichocereusSP a écrit :

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suszterpatt a écrit :

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Zee a écrit :

100% agree with Chris.

There is no way to add a logout timer that would not apply to all kinds of exits, that means when there is a power outage, lag spike, game freeze etc. you would be ADDING a timer to all of those as well. No thanks!!

There already is a timer on those. It's 6 seconds.

Meaning that currently, you're more at threat of dying to a DC than to a manual logout.

Cay anyone confirm this is a wrong information (or a correct information)?

Later on in the same interview

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BossOfThisGym a écrit :

I would of died to lag many times over if I couldn't use a logout script.

If the game starts hanging or my ping gets spiked I need to be able to smash dat mf logout button or im just going to be dead meat. I already lost one 88 character to it this league and now im a bit more vigilant about watching latency and such.

To be perfectly clear, I'm not advocating just adding a logout timer to PoE as it is and changing nothing else. Monster damage would need to be toned down just enough so that you have time to react to trouble via some in-game mechanic. The point would be to make playing the game a preferrable option to escaping it.

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BossOfThisGym a écrit :

What are these one-shots you guys are talking about?

Ya if you build a 3k life character in sc you are gonna get oneshot.

Don't stand on DD boxes, learn the DD mechanics (beyond archer, totem, etc...).



All of my builds are like 80% going for life nodes and I still assrip through most maps with SSF gear, you dont need to instagib every map boss in the game at level 70.

Also to be perfectly clear: I'm using the term "oneshots" as shorthand for anything that kills you so fast that you have no time to press your logout button. Technically, that could be a single hit, multiple hits, or even a very strong DoT, that distinction is irrelevant in this respect. The important thing is that as long as instant logout exists, you cannot reliably kill players with anything else.

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Midgaard12 a écrit :

I support the removal of Instant Logout.

There might be some legit circumstances where it would be usefull, but 98% of the time people exploit it to make up for their poor play.

Portals exist, use those.

Wow that's Infuriating! You just make up a wildly incorrect statistic and spout it as your evidence for supporting ruining the game for HC players.

Poor players that use alt-f4 to exit the game when things 'get too hard' (and are not getting 1-shot) are POOR PLAYERS who will never get better and never survive in maps when portals are limited. NOBODY I know who plays HC used alt-f4 except when there are game problems/lag spikes or some other nonsense.

We fight to near death time and time again in HC and don't exit, and you want to take away our only way to save our characters when the games at fault? NO WAY!

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Boem a écrit :

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allbusiness a écrit :

Because I have survived bad instances because of logout? Sometimes players misread a situation and are able to correct that by being able to correctly identify that now is the time to logout or death is imminent. Not everyone can identify every situation perfectly, nor can you always build perfectly unless you do some dumb super tank build that does 0 dps.


Why someone is trying to argue regarding logout and doesn't either push to 100 or play HC is beyond me. You've never had to play situations where you had to logout because you don't play situations where you need to logout. When you do, you'll find that logging out is extremely beneficial, and that you'd be dumb not to logout.

so you say that logging out saved you, because you lack the player-skill(game knowledge) to accurately interpret a dangerous situation?

How does that counter my argument.

and supper tank with 0 dps?

1) no dps in the current game state, are you being ridiculous just for the sake of it now, i'd have to go out of my way in the current game state to not have dps.
2) again black and white, just like i pointed out before you don't realize how shifting parameters work. Either one or the other, a middle ground is dangerous i know.

And then come the fallacy's, attacking the person to somehow make your lack of arguments less bothersome?

1) pushing to 100 is boring to me, i can do it, but it's just a time investment which isn't worth it to me
2) i'm from EU, so i don't have a static IP address. I played hardcore for two years and then opted out cause i found it pointless to be ranked in the top 50 and then die to my isp provider deciding i need a new IP.
3) just for funsies, softcore players play a lot more dangerous content then hardcore, so a log-out macro is actually more beneficial there. A hardcore player actively goes out of it's way to repeat easy content to disable danger as opposed to softcore players.
Lol people in softcore also use the log-out macro who are you fooling exactly with the "hardcore reigns supreme in difficulty" attitude.

You convince yourself a softocre player at lvl 98 in a dangerous situation is less motivated to use
log-out in a difficult situation compared to a hardcore player?

Content would be boring if they removed log-out and the current value's of damage, since it's already possible to negate them in the current game state.

Peace,

-Boem-

So now you've resorted to lying.


1) You've never reached level 90 in HC, which is the bare minimum you would have needed to be top 50 in pretty much every league for years, even when the grind was greater early on and the game was slower. You've never completed Merciless Labryinth. Checking all the previous ladders you've never even made it past like 70 in HC. Ladder data is available to see and you can check all the old ladders.

2) Your argument assumes that players play perfect builds and play perfectly and identify all situations all the time, which is the furthest thing from the truth. If the only 'correct' way to play the game is to 'play the right builds', then that basically defeats the entire purpose of build diversity which is what Path of Exile was all about in the first place.



Considering that things can and will do 8K+ pure damage at times, it's silly to think that players should have to deal with things like that.



Also you would know that if you're playing and pushing in HC for fast 100s, the best way is to do things like Beyond/Bloodlines/Mass Sextants, all which are dangerous in their own ways and can get you killed very easily. Sure, you can chain the easiest low tier red maps and do it eventually, but if you're playing competitively for the first 100, that's what you do. None of those are easy or free, as evidenced to the fact that people ripped big time early in the league.


But hey, your superior gameplay experience would tell you that right? Which is why fake elitists like you and Snorkle crack me the fuck up, you come in here just to call people bad players/sheep despite being shit stain players yourselves.

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allbusiness a écrit :

So now you've resorted to lying.


1) You've never reached level 90 in HC, which is the bare minimum you would have needed to be top 50 in pretty much every league for years, even when the grind was greater early on and the game was slower. You've never completed Merciless Labryinth. Checking all the previous ladders you've never even made it past like 70 in HC. Ladder data is available to see and you can check all the old ladders.

2) Your argument assumes that players play perfect builds and play perfectly and identify all situations all the time, which is the furthest thing from the truth. If the only 'correct' way to play the game is to 'play the right builds', then that basically defeats the entire purpose of build diversity which is what Path of Exile was all about in the first place.



Considering that things can and will do 8K+ pure damage at times, it's silly to think that players should have to deal with things like that.



Also you would know that if you're playing and pushing in HC for fast 100s, the best way is to do things like Beyond/Bloodlines/Mass Sextants, all which are dangerous in their own ways and can get you killed very easily. Sure, you can chain the easiest low tier red maps and do it eventually, but if you're playing competitively for the first 100, that's what you do. None of those are easy or free, as evidenced to the fact that people ripped big time early in the league.


But hey, your superior gameplay experience would tell you that right? Which is why fake elitists like you and Snorkle crack me the fuck up, you come in here just to call people bad players/sheep despite being shit stain players yourselves.

Can you start reading? Like any time soon?

Didn't i just make a post saying i don't have a static IP address and disconnect at random intervals while playing PoE.

And you expect me to reach lvl 100 in such a state? Are you mental? Or incapable of deducing simple statements and drawing conclusions?

I was ranked 14 on invasion the first 2 days(playing solo "btw"), then my ISP decided to give me a new IP address just when i entered a room with the lightning/fireball totem invasion boss in it = r.i.p
And that was the time i decided it is no longer worth it for me to play hardcore, since i enjoy the push but i am more in it for the theory and mechanical crafts.

So fuck off with your "lying" crap.

About your second point.

Again, reading. Build diversity exist's if you expand your game knowledge and improve your player-skill.
Until that time you can for sure enjoy build diversity but the game will punish you for it if pushed to far or liberally.

Your basically saying that "everybody should succeed no mater how they design their character", the game obviously does not work like that.
It has rules one must follow and within those rules freedom is allowed.
Player skill or defensive investment can bend those rules to a certain extend allowing greater freedom in other locations.(A tank build requires less focus but clears slower, a damage build requires more focus but clears faster, these are what people call trade-offs and the cornerstone of PoE)

A new player WILL fail. That's how games tend to work, you fail, learn from the mistake and aim to improve or work around the issue presented.

Your twisting the therm "build diversity" to suit your own goals.

Build diversity doesn't imply builds beyond the scope of the game masters rules.

Peace,

-Boem-

"instant logout" is nothing more than a cheap trick to get to safety whenever you want, with just 1 button click. It's plain boring and stupid.
Even in times of D2, it was stupid. As well as many other things, like small inventory/stash, enemy immunities, monsters burning full mana in 1 second, etc. But D2 was one of the first, so naturally, it made many mistakes.
Almost 20 years passed, and all those stupid mistakes in game design arent acceptable by any self-repecting player. I dont want to see enemies immune to damage, i dont want run from enemy just because i'm melee, and i know when i kill him, i'll die too, and f course, i DONT WANT instant logout!!!