Chris Wilson defends instant logout with all the wrong excuses

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allbusiness a écrit :

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

I think its fine, I dont think the damage levels are that bad. The idea that the games damage is balanced around logging out, with the implication that the damage levels are somehow unreasonable and require logging out, I dont fully buy into that.

That's your quote. Verbatim. So yes, your premise was that you thought the game's damage wasn't balanced around logging out

no its not, read the quote, the whole quote you have quoted, thats obviously not what I said.

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allbusiness a écrit :

You think you are better than every HC player on the planet.

no I dont, never said that either.

you question taking me seriously? You are intentionally misquoting me, I know u can read and understand what I am saying but you are choosing to pretend Im saying something else and then carrying on with some argument against a fictitious opinion you just fabricated. So how seriously should anyone take you when you are sidelining debates and misquoting people to drag conversations away from where they are at and what people are really saying?

If you want to disagree with a position you have just made up and have a long winded argument with your own imagination then go ahead mate, knock yourself out. You dont need to try and drag me into it.

If you want to actually have a serious discussion about something then fix up and stop being silly.

I never misquoted you once.


Your original position is that you believe that the game was never designed from the ground up with ALT+F4/logging out, with the implication (as in the conclusion that can be drawn from) that damage levels are so high that you would be forced or feel like you have to logout.


Except that the game was designed from the beginning with the option to logout, and that Chris himself has gone on record saying that the game is vastly different because logging out is an option. If the developers have to balance the game around the existence of a certain mechanic, that means that you as a player pretty much have to use it or you are at a disadvantage compared to others. Your dumb argument can be applied to Ascendancies. They exist, and no one is forcing you to use them. However, the entire's game balance is now planned around Ascendancies, and it would be unreasonable to expect a person to play through the entire game up to Shaper without using Ascendancies.



Not to mention you make outlandish claims about how you have great builds and you barely ever die, when I'm willing to bet if we showed a /deaths you definitely have more deaths then you are leading on. Like I said, you are arguing for the sake of arguing, and you are no better than sidtherat or any other elitist trolls on this forum.

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allbusiness a écrit :

I never misquoted you once.


Your original position is that you believe that the game was never designed from the ground up with ALT+F4/logging out, with the implication (as in the conclusion that can be drawn from) that damage levels are so high that you would be forced or feel like you have to logout.

no, I said I dont fully buy into the idea that damage levels are unreasonable and you are required to log out as a result of the games damage being balanced around logouts. What I dont "fully buy into" is that "damage levels are somehow unreasonable and require logging out".

So yes, you are misquoting me, you have said that my proposition is that the game was never designed around logouts, and I clearly didnt say that, I didnt say anything even remotely resembling that. You also said that I think im a better player than everyone on hardcore, I didnt say that, and now you say I claim to have great builds, and I have not claimed that either. So thats 3 times in probably as many posts from yourself in this thread. What I did say is that if you are playing characters designed to not get 1 shot and yet you are getting 1 shot constantly, then that is probably a bad character. That is a completely different statement, and it is not even remotely unreasonable.


Im not an elitist and Im not a troll, YOU are the one twisting words to create an argument, and that actually makes you the troll. What Im doing is giving an honest opinion about where the game is responsible for people being constantly 1 shot and where the players are responsible.

Do I make characters that get 1 shot? Yes, absolutely. I play softcore and I go to softcore leagues where I have spent 3 chaos orbs on my gear playing what I know to be a shit build and I go into situations where I know theres a high risk of death because I want the maps or the loot from that situation. My goal is to make money or items from the league, thats why I may be sitting on triple figure exalts while Ive spent essentially nothing and have made no effort to make a serious character that can survive. Whos fault is it if that character dies? My fault, thats not the games fault, thats not the game being full of 1 shots, thats me making a shit build and playing it like an idiot.

Heres a quote from a previous post

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I get 1 shot on a serious character maybe once per year atm

read it again, and now read it a 3rd time. Did you read all the words? Read it again and this time read all of the words and think about what they mean. Does that even say I never get 1 shot?

Do you realise that when you read posts you are not actually reading whats there?

when I post things its out of a desire to have an actual REAL conversation about the game, I want to read what people have written and try and get to the heart of what they are really trying to say. Im not looking try and bend what they are saying into something I can use to win an argument I want to have with them regardless of what they actually meant. Thats a pointless thing to do, what purpose does that serve? Why would I waste my time going out of my way to try and argue with people for the sake of it?

I wouldnt, and Im not going to waste any more time trying to have an actual conversation with you because you are obviously incapable of engaging in such a thing. So say whatever it is you have to say to feel like youve saved face and go fish for a quarrel with someone else mate, Im strictly here for serious and honest conversations about the actual game.

Rofl, you mean the countless of times how you've called the vast majority of players sheep for playing meta builds, and that HC players aren't innovative? That players have 'shit builds' and that in other threads you claim to know more about PoE than 99% of the population? That's not me misquoting or twisting facts at all.



You never even addressed the heart of the issue, in that the game's damage balance is based on the ability to logout. Good job. Like I said, no reasonable person would ever argue this game's damage isn't balanced around logging out, and if you plan on playing HC or pushing to level 100, you are basically forced and hamfisted into using it or you are at a distinct disadvantage versus someone who does.

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allbusiness a écrit :

Rofl, you mean the countless of times how you've called the vast majority of players sheep for playing meta builds, and that HC players aren't innovative? That players have 'shit builds' and that in other threads you claim to know more about PoE than 99% of the population? That's not me misquoting or twisting facts at all.



You never even addressed the heart of the issue, in that the game's damage balance is based on the ability to logout. Good job. Like I said, no reasonable person would ever argue this game's damage isn't balanced around logging out, and if you plan on playing HC or pushing to level 100, you are basically forced and hamfisted into using it or you are at a distinct disadvantage versus someone who does.

Snorkle is entirely correct.

The game's damage levels are very reasonable if you properly build for them.

What 80% of the people complain about is having a "health pool sponge" build and then being forced into the "log-out or one-shot" paradigm.

I have had builds with 4k hp that could run tier 15 vaaled triple damage maps without ever dying in the span of a week's play. If the game was actually as you make it out to be, such a thing could never happen or be unreasonable.

Those builds are not "speed-meta", but that's exactly the trade-off GGG wants. You go for a build that clears at a reasonable pace but does so effortlessly and with minimal risk of dying, or you go speed-clear and increase your chances of getting killed drastically.

A log-out macro, ironically i suppose, has more uses on a non-speed-clear build if done properly.

Peace,

-Boem-

Boem, you say that you are running at 4k hp, and don't die, and then say something about running a risk of dying because not enough hp. What is it, then? :@

Of course the game is balanced around being able to instant logout. Chris said that multiple times. Damage levels are FAR from being reasonable for non-instant-logout scenario.

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Boem a écrit :

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allbusiness a écrit :

Rofl, you mean the countless of times how you've called the vast majority of players sheep for playing meta builds, and that HC players aren't innovative? That players have 'shit builds' and that in other threads you claim to know more about PoE than 99% of the population? That's not me misquoting or twisting facts at all.



You never even addressed the heart of the issue, in that the game's damage balance is based on the ability to logout. Good job. Like I said, no reasonable person would ever argue this game's damage isn't balanced around logging out, and if you plan on playing HC or pushing to level 100, you are basically forced and hamfisted into using it or you are at a distinct disadvantage versus someone who does.

Snorkle is entirely correct.

The game's damage levels are very reasonable if you properly build for them.

What 80% of the people complain about is having a "health pool sponge" build and then being forced into the "log-out or one-shot" paradigm.

I have had builds with 4k hp that could run tier 15 vaaled triple damage maps without ever dying in the span of a week's play. If the game was actually as you make it out to be, such a thing could never happen or be unreasonable.

Those builds are not "speed-meta", but that's exactly the trade-off GGG wants. You go for a build that clears at a reasonable pace but does so effortlessly and with minimal risk of dying, or you go speed-clear and increase your chances of getting killed drastically.

A log-out macro, ironically i suppose, has more uses on a non-speed-clear build if done properly.

Peace,

-Boem-

So if you go full defensive and clear at a snail's pace? Ok.



So the game is either you go full defensive or you just accept dying. Because that's the argument you just laid out.

^Both of you are presenting it entirely black and white.

You can go full defensive

You can go full offensive

You can go a mix of the two

Either one of those three options will involve an impact on your probability to die when encountering harder and harder content.
There is no issue with this, it's called options and is entirely put on the player for making the correct choice that provides him the best beneficial game-play experience.

To put this in context you might understand more effortlessly.

A player like mathil can make most builds function in end-game with around 5k/6k hp with minimal investment in defensive layers, i would pose that this is not an accurate depiction of the player-base as a whole. But for him, this is his "enjoyable ratio".
He has player-skill to overcome the defensive down-side of most of his builds by actively positioning or building in a way that minimizes the active dangers that oppose his builds(like the "instantly burst a boss down strategy")

For a player with less game knowledge or less player-skill, this will most likely be harder to "copy-paste" or if they do, will result in more frequent deaths then him.

There is nothing wrong with these competing factors.

Peace,

-Boem-

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allbusiness a écrit :

So if you go full defensive and clear at a snail's pace? Ok.



So the game is either you go full defensive or you just accept dying. Because that's the argument you just laid out.

Your extremely poor at condensing what other people are telling you and reading what you want to read.

Because that is not the argument i am making.

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suszterpatt a écrit :

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Zee a écrit :

100% agree with Chris.

There is no way to add a logout timer that would not apply to all kinds of exits, that means when there is a power outage, lag spike, game freeze etc. you would be ADDING a timer to all of those as well. No thanks!!

There already is a timer on those. It's 6 seconds.

Meaning that currently, you're more at threat of dying to a DC than to a manual logout.

That timer is the 'no response' timeout, heartbeat timer. Its set at six seconds for the players - less and you disconnect people with poor connections often, higher and you are going to RIP many more HC players. Its set that way for our advantage, its NOT a punishment.

In that very interview you linked they talked about the possibility of making this a custom setting - so I also assume you would be opposed to anyone changing it to 3 seconds right? (I sure as hell would try to limit it to the very minimum possible)

What about any other kind of situation? TCP connection closed, game crash? I'm under the impression the character exits immediately - I have been in parties where I saw someone having client crashing problems and he sure as hell was not just sitting there for 6 seconds each time before he disappeared - more like 1/2 a second tops. would you suggest we ADD a timer to these situations? because if you don't, and you just add one for alt-f4 exits then someone would figure out how to tell the server it was not an alt-f4 and work around the timer. (some kind of 'kill switch' instead)

NO... The only way you could possibly do this fairly would be to ADD a timer to all situations with ONLY THE ONE INTENTION: to KILL the character as punishment for exiting.

This is what you want, and it would ruin HC gameplay entirely.

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suszterpatt a écrit :

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Zee a écrit :

100% agree with Chris.

There is no way to add a logout timer that would not apply to all kinds of exits, that means when there is a power outage, lag spike, game freeze etc. you would be ADDING a timer to all of those as well. No thanks!!

There already is a timer on those. It's 6 seconds.

Meaning that currently, you're more at threat of dying to a DC than to a manual logout.

Cay anyone confirm this is a wrong information (or a correct information)?