Chris Wilson defends instant logout with all the wrong excuses

"

Boem a écrit :

"

allbusiness a écrit :

So now you've resorted to lying.


1) You've never reached level 90 in HC, which is the bare minimum you would have needed to be top 50 in pretty much every league for years, even when the grind was greater early on and the game was slower. You've never completed Merciless Labryinth. Checking all the previous ladders you've never even made it past like 70 in HC. Ladder data is available to see and you can check all the old ladders.

2) Your argument assumes that players play perfect builds and play perfectly and identify all situations all the time, which is the furthest thing from the truth. If the only 'correct' way to play the game is to 'play the right builds', then that basically defeats the entire purpose of build diversity which is what Path of Exile was all about in the first place.



Considering that things can and will do 8K+ pure damage at times, it's silly to think that players should have to deal with things like that.



Also you would know that if you're playing and pushing in HC for fast 100s, the best way is to do things like Beyond/Bloodlines/Mass Sextants, all which are dangerous in their own ways and can get you killed very easily. Sure, you can chain the easiest low tier red maps and do it eventually, but if you're playing competitively for the first 100, that's what you do. None of those are easy or free, as evidenced to the fact that people ripped big time early in the league.


But hey, your superior gameplay experience would tell you that right? Which is why fake elitists like you and Snorkle crack me the fuck up, you come in here just to call people bad players/sheep despite being shit stain players yourselves.

Can you start reading? Like any time soon?

Didn't i just make a post saying i don't have a static IP address and disconnect at random intervals while playing PoE.

And you expect me to reach lvl 100 in such a state? Are you mental? Or incapable of deducing simple statements and drawing conclusions?

I was ranked 14 on invasion the first 2 days(playing solo "btw"), then my ISP decided to give me a new IP address just when i entered a room with the lightning/fireball totem invasion boss in it = r.i.p
And that was the time i decided it is no longer worth it for me to play hardcore, since i enjoy the push but i am more in it for the theory and mechanical crafts.

So fuck off with your "lying" crap.

About your second point.

Again, reading. Build diversity exist's if you expand your game knowledge and improve your player-skill.
Until that time you can for sure enjoy build diversity but the game will punish you for it if pushed to far or liberally.

Your basically saying that "everybody should succeed no mater how they design their character", the game obviously does not work like that.
It has rules one must follow and within those rules freedom is allowed.
Player skill or defensive investment can bend those rules to a certain extend allowing greater freedom in other locations.(A tank build requires less focus but clears slower, a damage build requires more focus but clears faster, these are what people call trade-offs and the cornerstone of PoE)

A new player WILL fail. That's how games tend to work, you fail, learn from the mistake and aim to improve or work around the issue presented.

Your twisting the therm "build diversity" to suit your own goals.

Build diversity doesn't imply builds beyond the scope of the game masters rules.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem a écrit :

Peace,

-Boem-

"

allbusiness a écrit :

1) The game master rule is that it tries to kill players that are capable of logging out. Hence, if you are not using log out in HC/pushing for 100, you are at a distinct and 100% disadvantage. This is an indisputable fact.


2) Parsing through the old data you're not even on the Invasion league ladder, which means you're full of shit. Again, lying to prove a point, which basically shoots all of your credibility.

"

DoEFotGS a écrit :

"

Boem a écrit :

Peace,

-Boem-

Just interesting: why you add this at the end of all your messages even if message content do not mean any sort of 'peace'? Also we all see how your account named without this remind.

"

Boem a écrit :

"

SudianX a écrit :

Think about it from the perspective of the game designer:
"How do I kill a player who can instantly alt-f4?"

Huge damage spikes that players cannot react to fast enough! (One-shots, or multiple hits in less than half a second)

These inconsistent, and thus surprising, huge damage spikes are perceived to be included in the game because of the player's ability to instantly log out.

Most people do not have a problem with instant logging out so much as a problem with the damage spikes.

Spoiler

If GGG added a logout timer / tp timer I assume it would go the same way as with Vaal pact... they would leave all of the damage spikes as is, or maybe increase them. Derp

Here is my issue with this stance, have you created a tank in this game? Did you balance offense vs defense in your builds?

And i'm not talking about 80% lifeM investment builds.

There is almost no spike damage in this game if you build defensive properly. Dominus in maps with "touch of god" deals like 5k damage if you counter build it defensively.(and thats a telegraphed move designed to "on"-hit ko")

The only spike damage currently with a potential to kill players are Aoe overlapping stacks.(which also have counters defensively)

All i see is a player-base coming out of a "18k ES" and "vaal pact ubber alles" meta and now over-reacting that the game actually try's to kill you if you take those cheese ways out of the game.

Well yeah, content is designed to kill you, duh?

Spike damage is almost non-existent and when it happens you can easily predict it's event with
game-knowledge and either engage with it actively(player skill) or passively (stack defensive layers).

Peace,

-Boem-

"

suszterpatt a écrit :

I never meant to imply that damage levels are unreasonable, becuse that's a) highly subjective and b) completely besides the point.

See, my contention with the oneshot meta is not that it makes the game difficult. I don't mind a difficult game, and it's entirely possible to make a difficult game without oneshots. My contention is that it severely limits the game's design.

Chris wants to allow instant logout, but he also wants to make fights dangerous. With instant logout, the only reliable way to kill players is to do it so quickly that they don't even have time to press one button. So now every dangerous encounter needs oneshots to be dangerous, and once you're done adding those, just how much more resources will you spend on other mechanics that you know will be ineffective? And so all encounters become essentially the same: some oneshot skills you need to avoid, and some ineffective skills you can ignore.

On the player side, because oneshots are everywhere, defenses that are bad at protecting against them become marginalized. Essentially, every build's survivability boils down to one question: "how much damage can I take before I can instalog?". Dealing with the consequences of taking that damage becomes irrelevant, because as long as you survive, there are no consequences after you've logged (apart from one less portal).


A game balanced around a logout timer would open up whole new possibilities both for enemy design, and for player builds. You could have bosses with dangerous DoT effects you need to outregen/outleech. You could have low HP, low mitigation builds that survive solely on stacking regen and leech. There's a whole new world of possibilities out there, and the only reason we can't explore it is because players can go "nope, not dealing with this" at any time with no repercussions.

Spoiler

"

allbusiness a écrit :

in other threads you claim to know more about PoE than 99% of the population? That's not me misquoting or twisting facts at all.

"

Snorkle_uk a écrit :

chill pills all round folks.

"

Boem a écrit :

"

SudianX a écrit :

Think about it from the perspective of the game designer:
"How do I kill a player who can instantly alt-f4?"

Huge damage spikes that players cannot react to fast enough! (One-shots, or multiple hits in less than half a second)

These inconsistent, and thus surprising, huge damage spikes are perceived to be included in the game because of the player's ability to instantly log out.

Most people do not have a problem with instant logging out so much as a problem with the damage spikes.

Spoiler

If GGG added a logout timer / tp timer I assume it would go the same way as with Vaal pact... they would leave all of the damage spikes as is, or maybe increase them. Derp

Here is my issue with this stance, have you created a tank in this game? Did you balance offense vs defense in your builds?

And i'm not talking about 80% lifeM investment builds.

There is almost no spike damage in this game if you build defensive properly. Dominus in maps with "touch of god" deals like 5k damage if you counter build it defensively.(and thats a telegraphed move designed to "on"-hit ko")

The only spike damage currently with a potential to kill players are Aoe overlapping stacks.(which also have counters defensively)

All i see is a player-base coming out of a "18k ES" and "vaal pact ubber alles" meta and now over-reacting that the game actually try's to kill you if you take those cheese ways out of the game.

Well yeah, content is designed to kill you, duh?

Spike damage is almost non-existent and when it happens you can easily predict it's event with
game-knowledge and either engage with it actively(player skill) or passively (stack defensive layers).

Peace,

-Boem-

I agree the line of thought stems from a presumption that theres a lot of massive damage spikes involving 1 shots and instantkill bursts, and then goes on to argue the case for those existing because of logouts.

I dont have a problem with the case thats being argued there because I dont get that far, I dont think those things really exist in any significant quantity unless youre playing a build that isnt defended properly. Of course there are ways you can still die on a balanced character designed to survive, the game wouldnt be much of a game if there wasnt. But how many of them are unavoidable or beyond reasonable expectations of the users ability to avoid them vs straight up user error? I think theyve made large steps to actually remove problematic mechanics like vol bloods, bearers u cant see through the clutter of screen effects, beyond reflects spawning in the middle of damage spams etc.



I play this game an awful lot and I would say almost all my deaths in the last few years were user error, and extremely few of them I would consider even close to unfair, almost all the ones that were imo unfair the mechanic that killed me has been changed or removed.


theres stuff in the game now that feels unbalanced for sure. I think es + life hybrid is particularly problematic as a defence mechanic, and es in general needs changes for example, but I think those are particular problems with specific mechanics, not a result of an overall direction of wanting to randomly 1 shot everyone resulting from logout considerations.

"

suszterpatt a écrit :

I never meant to imply that damage levels are unreasonable, becuse that's a) highly subjective and b) completely besides the point.

See, my contention with the oneshot meta is not that it makes the game difficult. I don't mind a difficult game, and it's entirely possible to make a difficult game without oneshots. My contention is that it severely limits the game's design.

Chris wants to allow instant logout, but he also wants to make fights dangerous. With instant logout, the only reliable way to kill players is to do it so quickly that they don't even have time to press one button. So now every dangerous encounter needs oneshots to be dangerous, and once you're done adding those, just how much more resources will you spend on other mechanics that you know will be ineffective? And so all encounters become essentially the same: some oneshot skills you need to avoid, and some ineffective skills you can ignore.

On the player side, because oneshots are everywhere, defenses that are bad at protecting against them become marginalized. Essentially, every build's survivability boils down to one question: "how much damage can I take before I can instalog?". Dealing with the consequences of taking that damage becomes irrelevant, because as long as you survive, there are no consequences after you've logged (apart from one less portal).


A game balanced around a logout timer would open up whole new possibilities both for enemy design, and for player builds. You could have bosses with dangerous DoT effects you need to outregen/outleech. You could have low HP, low mitigation builds that survive solely on stacking regen and leech. There's a whole new world of possibilities out there, and the only reason we can't explore it is because players can go "nope, not dealing with this" at any time with no repercussions.

ok you make interesting points here, and some I actually agree with.

what i dont agree with is that theres a 1 shot meta in terms of monster damage, and that 1 shots are everywhere. In my experience theres telegraphed boss 1 shots like slams, and outside of that theres hardly any at all, with the caviat that we are talking about a character with an appropriate level of defence for the level of content. If someones running around with 5.5k life, 15k evasion and acrobatics in hard red tier maps then yeah, thats a death trap setup thats gonna get gibbed by mobs in a map. I feel like I hardly ever get instantly killed by mobs even when Im playing awful builds like that if Im being honest.


I do agree though that theres a rapidly kill you or its completely ineffective problem with the game though. its not all pervasive and consuming but its certainly something thats prominent enough that I have an issue with it. I agree completely with that perception and the negative effects it has on the game.

I dont think it stems from logouts though, cause I dont feel like Im getting instantly killed by mobs in maps. I think it comes from player damage being completely off the charts, people are obliterating mobs so fast that basically the mob has 1 shot at you, and if it cant kill you with it then its annihilated. I dont see them killing people, so to me it seems like mobs just do nothing, theyre like barrels that move. I think the reason monster life cant be tuned to a point where some mobs stick around to actually have mechanics is because theres too big a gap in player damage. Some build archetypes are getting maybe 100k on average while others are getting 500k, some are topping out at 500k when pushed hard while others are hitting 3 million. Theres no way to balance mob life properly because theyve lost all control of player damage balance through neglect, allowing stupidly powerful dps flasks in the game, constantly giving us another way to get more multipliers. This latest batch of items, like wtf is this...

Spoiler

what is this? 9 link cascade mine helms with these sort of offhands? What are they doing? Those sceptres are from the league, theyre not even from standard.

I think they have lost all control of player damage, and that means they cannot tune monster life for dave with his 60k dps 5L hezmanas cyclone while also having mobs last long enough to mean anything to fred with his 2 million dps frostblader. Virtually everything is viable, but with such bad balance most people with a half decent build just instantly kill everything outside of a boss, and an unhealthy amount of them are even killing guardians in a matter of seconds.



I think that is the heart of the problem with no mechanics outside of avoid the 1 shot or mechanics that mobs leave behind on death like vol, bearers, porcs etc mean anything. I dont see that theres lots of 1 shots and I dont think it matters that players can log out of a more lengthy fight, cause they can just as easily kite it and youre not going to log out at every pack of mobs, youre not even going to log out once per map. Theres only so much a player who logs out is going to log out, if every pack contains a sustained threat then logouts are not going to interfere with that significantly. they cant provide a sustained threat because the pack disappears as soon as the player pulls the trigger, and you cant change that while you have significant groups of players dealing 50k dps, 150k dps, 550k dps and 5 million dps. They have simply fucked their game to what seems like a point beyond all hope of ever actually being credible, poe is a joke now and its hard to see a way back from it when every big update brings mechanics that are 10x as problematic as the last patch.

Chris talks about the game going on for another 12 years, how can they sustain 12 years of adding shit like those sceptres I posted? Take the most idiotic thing theyve ever added to the game pre 3.1, thats 10x worse, so going on the trend of imbalanced irresponsible powercreep they have been heading down within the next year they are going to add something multiple times as stupid as that item? How long can the game suffer that level of increasing incompetence and neglect? Its not 12 years Ill tell you that much.

to me logouts are a drop in the ocean of this games issues when it comes to the moment by moment play having meaning.

"

allbusiness a écrit :

in other threads you claim to know more about PoE than 99% of the population? That's not me misquoting or twisting facts at all.

I never said that, I said 90%, so yes thats another misquote. If I go /played on all my characters that I havent deleted it will probably tell me Ive played this game over 14,000 hours, 90% of people who have played poe have played less than 1,000 hours. Its not even a controversial thing to say its a pretty obvious fact. If I said 99% that would be saying I know more than 90% of the dedicated 10% of players who go heavy knowledge on the game, which is an entirely different statement.



In the thread you misquoted that from you were sending pms to other people you were arguing with threatening them with physical violence. Now you are misrepresenting what Boem has said and u 2 are getting agro. Whatever mate.

"

allbusiness a écrit :

I like how you use a current mirror tier item in current league to justify your arguments. That would be akin to me saying bow builds are OP because Brood Twine exists.


So we got one guy bullshitting about his past rankings who when you parse the old league data he doesn't even have a character on there (which means he's lying), and another guy who comes onto here pretending he's an elite level tier player who has never killed Atziri, Shaper, or the Pale Council. Ok.


Like I said, a bunch of guys who are bullshitting it up.