Its time for fortify+movement skill to die

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too harsh I think, why have a tradeoff? Do they want to give melee fortify or not? Cause if its anything short of like 30% Im never using it, I doubt a lot of people would. Honestly if it were me Id give it

Tradeoff because it currently only gives increased damage and no one uses it in their main link, at least no one "should", its gaining a more multiplier and its not going to work with mobility skills anymore.

If you or anyone doesn't want to use it after the change, then I think its fine. Those that want to tooltip warrior it up and not care about surviveability can do so, those that want to benefit from the change can do so.

If you make it any higher of a multiplier then that, then you will have people crying like "melee spells" should work with it and it not work with sunder or whatever excuse people want to use.

Ultimately, there are outliners to all conditions and while sunder\frostblades might have "more range" they are still melee skills, yes "melee movement" skills are still melee, but classes aren't limited here so the only way to make it so its not a cherry on top of already way too powerful movement skills is by enabling it to be a primary link support.

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Honestly if they did this it would solve the entire gem and a whole host of problems with moveskills and the knock on effect of caster weapon balance which bleeds into item usage, unique caster items being trash because u cant shield charge with them, so much knock on bullshit from the way fortify is playing out.

Which is why a more conservative damage multiplier is better. Melee is in a better then usual spot I think, except for the fact that everyone and their cousin has it from mobility skills. They don't probably "need" the damage benefit, so keep it low enough to not just power creep it in a way.

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theres other issues with moveskills, why do I need to 4 link lightning warp and get a hat enchant just to make it 70% as good as shield charge? Wtf is up with that?

I have a 4 link on my support and its quite fast. The only reason why it would be slower is if you have increased skill effect duration on the tree. I suggested that gems that are supported with less duration should ignore increased skill effect from other sources, but I don't think that is likely going to change.

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they need to stop gems like faster attacks and faster casting, certainly duration gems from working with moveskills, have them only scale with on board weapon attack/cast speed suffixes and passive tree attack/cast speed, and scale big time with them.

Disagree with the faster casting part. Cast speed never has and likely never will be an issue with working with movement skills. Attack speed on the other hand...

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People not building attack speed on the tree should have unplayably miserable whirling and shield charge, people with no cast speed on the tree should have crap lightning warps. Stop all this completely unnecessary gem taxation on moveskills and get the right people using the right ones. high end shield charging and whirling is out of control, its too fast, 54% attack speed gems are not helping and that a caster can use that gem and get around not having attack speed on tree is silly. thats why void batteries are worth fuck all, ggg cant add good unique wands, no ones gonna use them because of this ridiculous situation.

I feel you on the attack speed part, but unfort this isn't as much of a rant about movement skills in terms of power, I'm more focused on the free fortify aspect.

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u were against the implimentation right from the start charan, I was actually in the camp feeling like it was decent, it was a good way to do it. You were right and I was wrong, so wrong, its played out in some awful ways and by this stage I feel like its so obvious something needs done its kind of painful to still be seeing it and GGG not taking action.

I think they alienated a lot of older supporters, aka the ProjectPTs by having the game be such a fast paced clear the screen and spam mobility skills that they might have given up on anything to slow down the game. Only time will tell, but if they make any nerfs to movement abilities, especially this fortify interaction, it would restore some hope that they have not forgotten about us.



@astraph


I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of that, but something to keep in mind is that flask can be rolled quite well and have a large impact as well.



Need to roll increased effect, instead of duration.

Add in items like:



Grab a bunch of cold res on gear and you can scale evasion up quite nicely.


That being said that character is spectral throw, I'm literally asking GGG to nerf the defense of every character I currently play. So that the game may be better balanced.



Also evasion isn't that bad, you just need to have a large enough raw lifepool to take a hit.

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

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The_Scourge a écrit :

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u were against the implimentation right from the start charan, I was actually in the camp feeling like it was decent, it was a good way to do it. You were right and I was wrong, so wrong, its played out in some awful ways and by this stage I feel like its so obvious something needs done its kind of painful to still be seeing it and GGG not taking action.

I wish more people would be willing to admit when they're wrong on the nets, but not like this, not when there's no real victory -- we all lose out here. It just seemed to me weird that they'd attach so much melee sustainability to a support gem that could easily be triggered by non-melee builds. I don't recall making a huge post or impassioned plea about it. I doubt it would have mattered if I had.

Oh well. Keep fighting the good fight, friend. :(

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The_Scourge a écrit :

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

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The_Scourge a écrit :

...

u were against the implimentation right from the start charan, I was actually in the camp feeling like it was decent, it was a good way to do it. You were right and I was wrong, so wrong, its played out in some awful ways and by this stage I feel like its so obvious something needs done its kind of painful to still be seeing it and GGG not taking action.

I wish more people would be willing to admit when they're wrong on the nets, but not like this, not when there's no real victory -- we all lose out here. It just seemed to me weird that they'd attach so much melee sustainability to a support gem that could easily be triggered by non-melee builds. I don't recall making a huge post or impassioned plea about it. I doubt it would have mattered if I had.

Oh well. Keep fighting the good fight, friend. :(

It woulda mattered to me.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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too harsh I think, why have a tradeoff? Do they want to give melee fortify or not? Cause if its anything short of like 30% Im never using it, I doubt a lot of people would. Honestly if it were me Id give it

Tradeoff because it currently only gives increased damage and no one uses it in their main link, at least no one "should", its gaining a more multiplier and its not going to work with mobility skills anymore.

If you or anyone doesn't want to use it after the change, then I think its fine. Those that want to tooltip warrior it up and not care about surviveability can do so, those that want to benefit from the change can do so.

I dont see a case for reducing melees damage, I feel like ur compramising because u want something rather than nothing. You entitled to have ur opinion, so its all good.

If the devs are out there reading though, my opinion is that theres a lot of melee archetypes who are among the worst damage dealers in the game, by a long shot, their dps is like 1/4 of what it needs to be in order to be competitive, and on top of that they take about 4x as much damage as a ranged char. I dont see that giving them fortify even balances the defence risks they accept as a playstyle, I really cant see any case at all for making them further compromise damage in order to get it.

It aint about glass cannon it up, tooltip warriors, its about styles of melee that are already shit damage wise and take all the risks, then its compounded by not only having to be in the danger zone to do their damage but the fight lasting so much longer because their dps is so shit. You want to floor a guardian in 20 seconds from safe range or you wanna roll some RT melee shitbag of a build who has to stand in its face eating punishment for 3 minutes? Why should there be a compromise to fortify if only proper melee attacking nearby mobs are getting it? I see no case for any form of tradeoff, the tradeoff is already there, youre a a melee build who has to eat damage all day, the whole reason we needed fortify is because of an identified drawback that was already in the game without a benefit to balance it. Fortify should only be a benefit with no further tradeoff than you are a melee and melee need fortify for this game to be better balanced.

You dont benefit from 20% less damage taken when you lose 44% more damage dealt and therefor have to spend 44% more time in a bosses face and eat 44% more damage. You are trading 20% less damage taken for 44% more damage taken and 44% more time wasted, thats why no one uses it in their main links and giving anything short of 30-35% more damage on the gem is not making that equation work. Its shying away from doing what needs done, half arsed.

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

You dont benefit from 20% less damage taken when you lose 44% more damage dealt and therefor have to spend 44% more time in a bosses face and eat 44% more damage. You are trading 20% less damage taken for 44% more damage taken and 44% more time wasted, thats why no one uses it in their main links and giving anything short of 30-35% more damage on the gem is not making that equation work. Its shying away from doing what needs done, half arsed.

Then they could just put the fortify buff on the "melee physical damage" gem instead of introducing another "mandatory" main link gem.

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

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too harsh I think, why have a tradeoff? Do they want to give melee fortify or not? Cause if its anything short of like 30% Im never using it, I doubt a lot of people would. Honestly if it were me Id give it

Tradeoff because it currently only gives increased damage and no one uses it in their main link, at least no one "should", its gaining a more multiplier and its not going to work with mobility skills anymore.

If you or anyone doesn't want to use it after the change, then I think its fine. Those that want to tooltip warrior it up and not care about surviveability can do so, those that want to benefit from the change can do so.

I dont see a case for reducing melees damage, I feel like ur compramising because u want something rather than nothing. You entitled to have ur opinion, so its all good.

If the devs are out there reading though, my opinion is that theres a lot of melee archetypes who are among the worst damage dealers in the game, by a long shot, their dps is like 1/4 of what it needs to be in order to be competitive, and on top of that they take about 4x as much damage as a ranged char. I dont see that giving them fortify even balances the defence risks they accept as a playstyle, I really cant see any case at all for making them further compromise damage in order to get it.

It aint about glass cannon it up, tooltip warriors, its about styles of melee that are already shit damage wise and take all the risks, then its compounded by not only having to be in the danger zone to do their damage but the fight lasting so much longer because their dps is so shit. You want to floor a guardian in 20 seconds from safe range or you wanna roll some RT melee shitbag of a build who has to stand in its face eating punishment for 3 minutes? Why should there be a compromise to fortify if only proper melee attacking nearby mobs are getting it? I see no case for any form of tradeoff, the tradeoff is already there, youre a a melee build who has to eat damage all day, the whole reason we needed fortify is because of an identified drawback that was already in the game without a benefit to balance it. Fortify should only be a benefit with no further tradeoff than you are a melee and melee need fortify for this game to be better balanced.

You dont benefit from 20% less damage taken when you lose 44% more damage dealt and therefor have to spend 44% more time in a bosses face and eat 44% more damage. You are trading 20% less damage taken for 44% more damage taken and 44% more time wasted, thats why no one uses it in their main links and giving anything short of 30-35% more damage on the gem is not making that equation work. Its shying away from doing what needs done, half arsed.

+1000

I feel the exact way too.

And yes, I'm one of those "schmucks" that do play those less damage dealt, "moar" damage taken builds, just because I enjoy to hit my enemies in close proximity, and I would love to not be penalised multiple times because of that...

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Peterlerock a écrit :

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Snorkle_uk a écrit :

You dont benefit from 20% less damage taken when you lose 44% more damage dealt and therefor have to spend 44% more time in a bosses face and eat 44% more damage. You are trading 20% less damage taken for 44% more damage taken and 44% more time wasted, thats why no one uses it in their main links and giving anything short of 30-35% more damage on the gem is not making that equation work. Its shying away from doing what needs done, half arsed.

Then they could just put the fortify buff on the "melee physical damage" gem instead of introducing another "mandatory" main link gem.

The issue there is why should only phys damage builds benefit from this.


Could go back to the whole make fortify inherent to all melee (non mobility) skill gems then.


No one is asking to put melee in the dumpster, if you guys or GGG think 30% or more is necessary, by all means make it that number. But the initial thought was it would make actual melee more competitive to ranged builds and spell casters if they got back exclusivity to what is theirs.

Melee isn't exactly suffering, at least any of the builds that still use leech considerably, I dont think losing 10% more damage (that is likely conditional) for a melee build is that big of a deal.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Melee isn't exactly suffering, at least any of the builds that still use leech considerably, I dont think losing 10% more damage (that is likely conditional) for a melee build is that big of a deal.

Melee as an archetype is not "suffering", yes.
You can survive and defeat all content in this game in close range with a melee skill.

It is just safer, faster and overall more efficient to play a ranged or spell build. ;)

Atm, there's nothing wrong with playing melee, as long as you accept that you will farm slower, work harder and risk death more often.

But give melee something exclusive. Something that ranged/spells cannot get.
Fortify could be such a thing.

Make fortify only active when there's at least one enemy at close range ?
That will solve all problem isn't it ?
something like grayed out or vanishing when not close will suffice. caster and bower must rely on things like worm flask or something in order to keep it up...

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__Z__ a écrit :

Make fortify only active when there's at least one enemy at close range ?
That will solve all problem isn't it ?
something like grayed out or vanishing when not close will suffice. caster and bower must rely on things like worm flask or something in order to keep it up...

Yes if you define close up as really close up, but more likely no, far too long duration of fortify for it to matter.

If one want to go that route you need to nerf the duration from 4 sec to 0.2 sec or so.
That way you can in practice only use it with main attack skills since it would expire as soon as you stop attacking..
In other words... shield charge + fortify every 4-8 sec to keep it up for casters just wont work.


But I rather GGG took a serious look at movement skills in general then fiddle with changes like this.