Please Remove MoM from Tree

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Saltychipmunk a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

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Saltychipmunk a écrit :

i vote to replace thrill killer with mom

mom is clearly a int/dex keystone. as seen on Cod. so put it in a the int dex area.

also if we put it behind like 2 mana nodes in a bubble we can tailor the investment needed for it without needing to force players to take worthless nodes they simply do not need to get to mom.

mom needs mana so put it in the int/ dex area behind some mana nodes . boom problem solved.

Lol, boom problem solved people, we can pack up the bags and go home.

it would make alot more sense than where it is now. you have to admit putting it in the dex in area that benefits it the most but also putting it behind a few nodes of investment makes alot more sense than a pointless skillgrimage to a part of the tree that has no use for the node

Pretty much any location on the tree that moves it up would be a better position then where it is at. That being said I think it belongs on the OTHER side of the scion, even if it is to increase the travel path a few extra points.

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goetzjam a écrit :

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sidtherat a écrit :

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Aim_Deep a écrit :

You miss point. If its bad against uber it's just less bad against lessor content but still bad.

so you say that burning damage is bad?

Yes, yes it is.

Literally all of PoE is uber atziri don't you know?

(/s)

MoM one day will be thought of like Iron Reflex and Armor was.

I remeber when I came here everyone was like u need huge armor and IR. I'm like what for? Lightning COil is better than 50,000 armor. Now Armor is considered junk.

It's amusing to me they even nerfed Cloak of Defiance.

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MoM one day will be thought of like Iron Reflex and Armor was.

I remeber when I came here everyone was like u need huge armor and IR. I'm like what for? Lightning COil is better than 50,000 armor. Now Armor is considered junk.

It's amusing to me they even nerfed Cloak of Defiance

Armor is considered junk because stacking multiple forms of defenses is better. Armor requires a very high investment for it to be worth it.

Going acro allows for you to go phase acro to dodge spells, that is huge.

If you think LC is so good but CoD is not your missing the whole point of the % provided by the chest.

MoM is just so great for casters, they naturally want a large mana pool to run AA, they get the ability to increase their pseudo health pool by utilizing mana for hits as well as life. Everything about MoM is fantastic for casters, I don't forsee that changing anytime soon.

They technically didn't nerf CoD, in most cases it was a buff rather then a nerf due to the 40% never being utilized, now it allows for people to take advantage of the chest without going OOM (hopefully) from larger hits.

Play MoM, play CoD I'm sure if you did you'd realize how important it is to a caster and how fantastic of a design idea it was.

Mom's location CAN be fine, if it had some nodes behind it that are powerful.

--> MoM

---> Solitude
(+25 inteligence/+30 flat mana)

----> Ethereal consciousness.
(+3% global mana leach/ +30 flat mana)

-----> Mater siphon
(+40% mana leach efficiency)

These 3 nodes behind MoM would make it usable in it's current state without being ridiculous or a troll to the duelist area.

It would create a clear distinction between MoM where it is located in the passive tree
= a melee oriented side/ MoM based around leach mechanics to be utilized "in the heat of combat")

And the MoM on the chest, which is a clear caster side oriented design, which the "chest item slot cost" actually enforces, since casters are usually less item intensive then melee in terms of cost.

I see MoM's location as potential currently untapped or unused. But that could potentially be worked into a sustainable defense for melee's.

Peace,

-Boem-

I see a lot of posts about 'where' but not many about 'why'.

Why doesn't GGG want most people to get MoM unless they use a Cloak of Defiance? Is it because a high ES chest would be too OP with that node? If so, why not just remove the keystone so you can better control how it's used (only through the Cloak)?

Would the number of people using that node with EB even be in the double-digits? And when was the last time those people saw a psychologist?

MoM's problem is that it is too synergistic with EB. 30% less damage + free AA + never worry about casting costs? Hardly powerful.

In theory, it makes sense to place MoM close to the duelist. After all, it has some sort of synergy with blood magic, mana leech and Soul Taker. The problem is that when used with BM and ST you lose one of their biggest advantage - aggressively reserving your mana pool for auras - and the opportunity cost doesn't justify that.
You can use it with mana leech but who wants to use auto attacks because the mana pool has been drained by MoM?


In the end, IMO, the entire defense system needs more thought. There are some extremely efficient options while others are simply eclipsed by their contenders.

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MoM's problem is that it is too synergistic with EB. 30% less damage + free AA + never worry about casting costs? Hardly powerful.

Right so its better to force players into picking up the unqiue item instead of a keystone. /s

It isn't its terrible position will never allow for another chest to contest with CoD in regards to a MoM build, it simply isn't worth ever going another way. Mana cost don't matter anymore, GGG has added plenty of mana nodes and between regen on tree and gear (especially after master crafting) you won't ever run out of mana casting spells with EB, if you do, your doing a no or heal regen map.

So please cut that bullshit mentality of LOL its too OP to be anywhere closer then it is. Its too far away for it to ever compete with CoD, so naturally as an ARPG designed with a vast skill tree if taking the chest is ALWAYS and FOREVER better, the option of MoM being on the tree is completely pointless.

MoM doesn't work against degens, doesn't help many scenarios and AA was just nerfed pretty hard, I don't argue that MoM is strong, its just PoE lacks the ability (as you later mention) to provide good defensive stats for casters other then this.

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In theory, it makes sense to place MoM close to the duelist. After all, it has some sort of synergy with blood magic, mana leech and Soul Taker. The problem is that when used with BM and ST you lose one of their biggest advantage - aggressively reserving your mana pool for auras - and the opportunity cost doesn't justify that.

What the hell are you even talking about? It makes 0 sense for it to be in its current location, other then the fact that it is on the other side of the tree from EB. There is 0 synergy between bloodmagic\mana leech\soultaker and MoM. The whole idea that there is is completely asinine and I cannot believe you are trying to use that as an argument. Please come up with a successful build with this before you make such an ignorant and far-fetched idea that it actually works in some way with any builds in that area.

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You can use it with mana leech but who wants to use auto attacks because the mana pool has been drained by MoM?

MoM is pointless without EB, it truly is, your better off just starting witch or shadow and then traveling down thru that area if you somehow want that node, in which case its completely pointless location is very clear.

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In the end, IMO, the entire defense system needs more thought. There are some extremely efficient options while others are simply eclipsed by their contenders.

Some are just naturally going to be better, would love to see the marauder get some love as the last time that class was popular it actually had +max res, perhaps some ability to offset elemental damage with a different type of keystone.

One thing to keep in mind is that while some options seem eclipsed those options are still amazing in certain circumstances. Armor for example if invested into gives great mitigation, problem is stacking multiple forms of defenses is always better. Not to mention armors use is less then desireable and more investment then cwdt\ic\id

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davidnn5 a écrit :

I see a lot of posts about 'where' but not many about 'why'.

Why doesn't GGG want most people to get MoM unless they use a Cloak of Defiance? Is it because a high ES chest would be too OP with that node? If so, why not just remove the keystone so you can better control how it's used (only through the Cloak)?

Would the number of people using that node with EB even be in the double-digits? And when was the last time those people saw a psychologist?

that question is solved by the fact that eb converts all es into mana and mom only does 30% conversion.

you can have 900 es chest gear and a combined 3000 base es on all of your crap. but you wont because 30% damage mitigation while nice is no better than a bunch of endurance charges or a conversion flask or resistances.

and there IS a point where too much mana for eb exists. 10000 mana sounds great but if you only have 4k life you could very much die before you make a dent in that mana pool.

cloak of defiance will always have a purpose for that reason a 1k es chest is unressisary for mom builds. plus mom without investment even if it only saves you a hand full of passives , is useful.

hell the only reason hyrries ire is crap is because it only gives acrobatics and not the things behind it.


this is why i also disagree with boem, the moment you put shit behind mom is the moment cod dies a horrible death.

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Boem a écrit :

Mom's location CAN be fine, if it had some nodes behind it that are powerful.

--> MoM

---> Solitude
(+25 inteligence/+30 flat mana)

----> Ethereal consciousness.
(+3% global mana leach/ +30 flat mana)

-----> Mater siphon
(+40% mana leach efficiency)

These 3 nodes behind MoM would make it usable in it's current state without being ridiculous or a troll to the duelist area.

It would create a clear distinction between MoM where it is located in the passive tree
= a melee oriented side/ MoM based around leach mechanics to be utilized "in the heat of combat")

And the MoM on the chest, which is a clear caster side oriented design, which the "chest item slot cost" actually enforces, since casters are usually less item intensive then melee in terms of cost.

I see MoM's location as potential currently untapped or unused. But that could potentially be worked into a sustainable defense for melee's.

Peace,

-Boem-

TBH, this is a best idea I have ever seen about MoM/CoD/EB.

Melee/duelist buff? Check
CoD still useful? Check

Problem that MIGHT rise tho, is that it would be must-have node for duelists. And there is nothing stopping Ranger taking it too. So, yeah, in general good idea, but I think it needs more polishing. Overall good direction.

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Saltychipmunk a écrit :

this is why i also disagree with boem, the moment you put shit behind mom is the moment cod dies a horrible death.

How the hell do you come to this conclusion?

If MoM stays in it's position where it is now, with my additions to it, it becomes a "stand-alone" key-stone. That does not "need" a direct relationship with EB to perform at a reasonable level in the current end-game.

If you want to combine both, sure go ahead, but it will cost you roughly 30+- passive points of investment to create the synergy between EB/MoM, which arguably could lead to better results spend otherwise.

On the other hand, CoD is still available for the casters who want to run EB/CoD without the massive passive points draw-back of traveling to the bottom.

So in short, you have a CoD(MoM) version that is entirely based on the item and is sustained with regenerative effects coupled with EB.

And you have a MoM located in the passive tree that is based around leach mechanics and more "battle centered" because of this, that is completely detached from EB to function and actually a key-stone worth considering for characters close to it.

I fail to see how having a functional MoM key-stone in the bottom of the passive tree suddenly means
"the death of CoD"

How many builds do you see that travel to MoM and EB ? So far i know of one build that has the passive points to accomplish that without being to much of a drawback.

Anyway, i don't understand your logic of how this would result in the end of CoD, it won't, it will just remove the MoM from a noob-trap status to a functioning key-stone with a clear design and goal in mind.

Peace,

-Boem-