Please Remove MoM from Tree

Boem did some pretty extensive testing with duelist MoM. I trust he's got a pretty good idea about MoM's deficiencies and how to resolve them; however, with that said, I absolutely do not believe MoM should be that nuclear.

Those are all fine candidates for notables that can be placed around duelist, perhaps with a few pathing disparities to make things interesting, but they definitely should not be located behind MoM. Unless, by behind you meant "available supportive options," and not literally behind. Most of these options exist, but (iirc) they're precluded because their pathing is too disparate, correct? They just need to be more available to the duelist, and the duelist needs to develop a much stronger identity with leech.

Also, I'm on my mobile, so I cannot view the passive tree, node names, or their properties, but I still believe that "MGoH" cluster could be better utilized by MoM (i.e., moved slightly closer).

"

Boem a écrit :

On the other hand, CoD is still available for the casters who want to run EB/CoD without the massive passive points draw-back of traveling to the bottom.

I agree with salty here that leaving the keystone for duelist is a terrible idea, it has (even with your changes) very little synergy with the class overall and does nothing unique for duelist. It make 0 sense logically for the duelist to have a freaking mana shield. His other keystone "IR" while fits his character better, is still terrible in regards to providing a benefit worth starting duelist over either ranger or marauder.

IMO the whole idea that the keystone is never an option for a caster because of its location is completely asinine. GGG should be encouraging builds that can utilize a nice rare chest instead of forcing\punishing players that want to be a caster and use MOM into using CoD. Players should have the option to use a good rolled Saintly Chainmail or whatever ES\hybrid chest they want, while CoD can provide a niche (like all uniques should) for those players that wish to save and invest a few points elsewhere on the tree.

Give duelist something else as MoM has no place with synergy in that class, doesn't fit the whole lore\idea of the class and won't provide anyone a reason to start duelist over another class either.

Any change that doesn't make MoM (on the tree) more appealing (aka closer) to the casters would just be a mistake.

"

CanHasPants a écrit :

Boem did some pretty extensive testing with duelist MoM. I trust he's got a pretty good idea about MoM's deficiencies and how to resolve them; however, with that said, I absolutely do not believe MoM should be that nuclear.

Those are all fine candidates for notables that can be placed around duelist, perhaps with a few pathing disparities to make things interesting, but they definitely should not be located behind MoM. Unless, by behind you meant "available supportive options," and not literally behind. Most of these options exist, but (iirc) they're precluded because their pathing is too disparate, correct?

Also, I'm on my mobile, so I cannot view the passive tree, node names, or their properties, but I still believe that "MGoH" cluster could be better utilized by MoM (i.e., moved slightly closer).

The MgoH cluster is useless in end-game for a melee MoM combatant.

+2 mana does nothing at that stage. It can carry you a bit up to cruel, but on the other hand why would you spec into Mind over mater at that stage? Your aura's serve more purpose, both defensively and offensively.

So basically it's a "no-go" cluster if your going MoM, there are better clusters around to take instead.

The only thing that i include that does not exist yet in the passive tree is the "% mana leach efficiency"
and "global 3% mana leach"

1) mana leach efficiency, very important since i am talking about a melee perspective here. the goal would be to evade some of the hits, but due to melee's nature that won't work on all hits. So you want a buffer that can sustain and alleviate damage.

What you don't want is a buffer that is depleted on 3 hits and takes 10 seconds to recharge to full (which wont happen btw, you will just keep getting hit depleting your mana over and over)

Don't forget, MoM is a buffer that only functions as long as the resource is available. This also means, in a situation where the buffer is absorbing huge amounts of damage (the time when you really NEED it to function) it will in-fact not help you currently.

For a leach based version to work out, it needs a mana leach% efficiency increase TO OFF-SET the low base mana of a duelist melee arche-type.
This would allow for characters that have a hard time getting roughly 1200 man(which was how much i had i think with a solid investment in the character, almost all slots bis mana rolls) to leach as if they have 1800 mana for example. It would increase there mana pool exponentially i imagine without effecting the base mana regen value's.

2) the global mana leach is basically to create item comfort and to have a leach that is not restricted to either socketing in the skill directly or to physical damage output.

The reason for this is quite simple, a build like this is already extremely hard to compose and additionally it requires you to use blood magic, because in combat you cant afford to stop leaching/attacking at any point since it will be a dead wish. Thus requiring another mandatory gem(mana leach) would be extremely bad for build freedom and overall power.

further-more one must consider what a MELEE MoM character is sacrificing for his gains. Simply put, a spell caster has affinity with mana/mana regen and a "low" affinity with aura's. They are usually ranged, which allows a lower investment in defensive aura's and there damage output cannot be effected by aura's other then haste.(excluding buffs)

Thus for them, MoM comes at a minimal investment price, it's more like a freeby/bonus.

But for a melee character, the polar opposite is a reality. He rely's on aura's in all kinds of forms and shapes (defensive/offensive/utility), thus denying him of this is already a drawback. He also has very little affinity with mana, which leads to a very poor leach rate(based on full mana buffer)

So i would argue that a MoM situated in the lower half of the passive tree, could need a few strong nodes behind it to make it at least a "reasonable" trade-off.

Where currently, you are just shooting yourself in the foot by either

1) giving up aura's
2) splitting up your passive tree over hp/mana% instead of just hp% and being done with it
3) yielding extremely low ehp efficiency for the investment made in all facets (items/passives)

All of this to say, yes i like MoM, yes i tried it with melee, yes it sucks with melee in its current position/iteration no mater the investment made by the player.

But rather then just moving it around a few times, i would rather tackle it's "current iteration" instead of "current location" because i feel this could be the thing to give duelist some more appeal if done correctly. As well as open up a new play-style and defensive form for players to have fun with.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

goetzjam a écrit :

"

Boem a écrit :

On the other hand, CoD is still available for the casters who want to run EB/CoD without the massive passive points draw-back of traveling to the bottom.

I agree with salty here that leaving the keystone for duelist is a terrible idea, it has (even with your changes) very little synergy with the class overall and does nothing unique for duelist. It make 0 sense logically for the duelist to have a freaking mana shield. His other keystone "IR" while fits his character better, is still terrible in regards to providing a benefit worth starting duelist over either ranger or marauder.

IMO the whole idea that the keystone is never an option for a caster because of its location is completely asinine. GGG should be encouraging builds that can utilize a nice rare chest instead of forcing\punishing players that want to be a caster and use MOM into using CoD. Players should have the option to use a good rolled Saintly Chainmail or whatever ES\hybrid chest they want, while CoD can provide a niche (like all uniques should) for those players that wish to save and invest a few points elsewhere on the tree.

Give duelist something else as MoM has no place with synergy in that class, doesn't fit the whole lore\idea of the class and won't provide anyone a reason to start duelist over another class either.

Any change that doesn't make MoM (on the tree) more appealing (aka closer) to the casters would just be a mistake.

He's a duelist. I can happily provide you some lore or whatever to demonstrate how he must utilize his intellect to learn about his opponent and then utilize his "mental shield" to sustain him better in combat.

'-.-???

I think your biased in this, looking at your last sentence. There is absolutely no reason to make MoM "better" for casters in it's current iteration.

Fucking 900 ES armor EB/MOM combo? really? No thanks. Shit would be broken, hell we would see acro/phase acro EB/MOM just because they would have the same mana pool they currently have BUT WITH acro/phase.

My stance is that MoM should be far away from EB, however, it should be a workable stand-alone keystone where it is located and not be devoid of purpose because it requires EB to function properly.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem a écrit :

"

goetzjam a écrit :

"

Boem a écrit :

On the other hand, CoD is still available for the casters who want to run EB/CoD without the massive passive points draw-back of traveling to the bottom.

I agree with salty here that leaving the keystone for duelist is a terrible idea, it has (even with your changes) very little synergy with the class overall and does nothing unique for duelist. It make 0 sense logically for the duelist to have a freaking mana shield. His other keystone "IR" while fits his character better, is still terrible in regards to providing a benefit worth starting duelist over either ranger or marauder.

IMO the whole idea that the keystone is never an option for a caster because of its location is completely asinine. GGG should be encouraging builds that can utilize a nice rare chest instead of forcing\punishing players that want to be a caster and use MOM into using CoD. Players should have the option to use a good rolled Saintly Chainmail or whatever ES\hybrid chest they want, while CoD can provide a niche (like all uniques should) for those players that wish to save and invest a few points elsewhere on the tree.

Give duelist something else as MoM has no place with synergy in that class, doesn't fit the whole lore\idea of the class and won't provide anyone a reason to start duelist over another class either.

Any change that doesn't make MoM (on the tree) more appealing (aka closer) to the casters would just be a mistake.

He's a duelist. I can happily provide you some lore or whatever to demonstrate how he must utilize his intellect to learn about his opponent and then utilize his "mental shield" to sustain him better in combat.

'-.-???

I think your biased in this, looking at your last sentence. There is absolutely no reason to make MoM "better" for casters in it's current iteration.

Fucking 900 ES armor EB/MOM combo? really? No thanks. Shit would be broken, hell we would see acro/phase acro EB/MOM just because they would have the same mana pool they currently have BUT WITH acro/phase.

My stance is that MoM should be far away from EB, however, it should be a workable stand-alone keystone where it is located and not be devoid of purpose because it requires EB to function properly.

Peace,

-Boem-

The duelist is a strength\dex hybrid class, in what world do you think that classifies intellect? Mental shield not the same as mana shield, you should know this if I recall correctly you played D2.

The statement of any direction but moving it closer (you really can't move it that much further away) is not biased here. I've only ever used the chest for one build, my other casters have dealt with defenses in other ways.

The reason to make it "better" is as it stands now casters are FORCED (if they want that keystone) into utilizing that chest as it is completely inefficient and unwise to get the keystone and EB. How is forcing players into using a chest because they can't possibly reach the keystone is terrible design, it directly goes against the statement 'in poe the best items are rares'

The highest ES saintly in standard is 700 (this one cost a mirror), the highest in torment is 570, highest in bloodlines is 500, are you honestly going to tell me that will be completely broken and that you think the combo would use acro\phase? Before the block changes we saw people take acro\phase and max block, that was by far multiple times more broken then if somehow characters can run acro\phase and mom\eb, to dispute this would be asinine and I'm not entirely sure anyone could pull it off (that couldn't already pull it off before with some minor sacrifices. Not to mention you lose 1/2 that armor from a saintly by going acro your basically making a sacrifice of the gained armor from saintly to go acro.

"

My stance is that MoM should be far away from EB, however, it should be a workable stand-alone keystone where it is located and not be devoid of purpose because it requires EB to function properly.

It should be a distance, just not as far and out of place as it stands now, I've suggested where it could be moved to, so that a keystone can compete with a unique item.

^

1) Invalesco did MoM/EB/acro/phaseacro with CoD, it was and still is "broken beyond words", it just requires some very solid items(like 550+es shields etc) which is why you don't see it often. This was also with CoD and not with a 900ES regalia, which would multiply the base mana pool again. (Might break even with a carnal armor because of the mana implicit and a 600 roll ES value, not sure on that)

2) You guys are all focusing on MoM in relationship to EB, without considering EB has a purpose and use on its own and MoM does not.

This is the main problem of MoM, a lack of utility/goal in itself.

My attempt tries to give a reason or goal to MoM, to allow it to exist and give meaning to characters that opt to utilize it.

And to do so without a need of EB, creating a synergy between the key-stones that is optional, not mandatory.

"

goetzjam a écrit :

The reason to make it "better" is as it stands now casters are FORCED (if they want that keystone) into utilizing that chest as it is completely inefficient and unwise to get the keystone and EB. How is forcing players into using a chest because they can't possibly reach the keystone is terrible design, it directly goes against the statement 'in poe the best items are rares'

Also this is false, the reason it is like it is is to provide a choice to players. Can i get to both
key-stones so i can utilize that rare armor or will i get more efficiency out of my build if i use CoD and make up for the lost stats in the passive tree?

A trapper for example, has the luxury to go both EB and MoM and can go for a rare armor piece as a result.

Anywayz, i'm off for a week doing some stuff so do with this discussion as you please, i made 2 threads telling into detail how and why i would change MoM from what it is to a melee oriented defense anybody can read those i imagine.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem a écrit :

^

1) Invalesco did MoM/EB/acro/phaseacro with CoD, it was and still is "broken beyond words", it just requires some very solid items(like 550+es shields etc) which is why you don't see it often. This was also with CoD and not with a 900ES regalia, which would multiply the base mana pool again. (Might break even with a carnal armor because of the mana implicit and a 600 roll ES value, not sure on that)

2) You guys are all focusing on MoM in relationship to EB, without considering EB has a purpose and use on its own and MoM does not.

This is the main problem of MoM, a lack of utility/goal in itself.

My attempt tries to give a reason or goal to MoM, to allow it to exist and give meaning to characters that opt to utilize it.

And to do so without a need of EB, creating a synergy between the key-stones that is optional, not mandatory.

"

goetzjam a écrit :

The reason to make it "better" is as it stands now casters are FORCED (if they want that keystone) into utilizing that chest as it is completely inefficient and unwise to get the keystone and EB. How is forcing players into using a chest because they can't possibly reach the keystone is terrible design, it directly goes against the statement 'in poe the best items are rares'

Also this is false, the reason it is like it is is to provide a choice to players. Can i get to both
key-stones so i can utilize that rare armor or will i get more efficiency out of my build if i use CoD and make up for the lost stats in the passive tree?

A trapper for example, has the luxury to go both EB and MoM and can go for a rare armor piece as a result.

Anywayz, i'm off for a week doing some stuff so do with this discussion as you please, i made 2 threads telling into detail how and why i would change MoM from what it is to a melee oriented defense anybody can read those i imagine.

Peace,

-Boem-

Show me these broken builds using the passives on the tree. You are suggesting people travel and get EB, MoM (on the tree) and phase acro? That is a long way to travel. If you are suggesting the combo would be too OP with a slight adjustment moving it actually further way from acro\phase then IDK if you understand its position on the tree fully. If its too OP to be move anywhere, then why exactly don't we see people using it now, when according to you its in a better potion.

Where I suggested it be moved is actually FURTHER from acro\phase, not closer. Its simply closer to the casters then its current position, which is completely useless.

MoM should be for casters, not for some stupid hybrid melee class, the whole idea came from D2's shield, guess who used it there.

This won't be "broken as fuck" if moved to where I suggested only give players the option to invest a few points into getting the passive on the tree instead of the current ~12 point investment it is currently.

"

Boem a écrit :

"

CanHasPants a écrit :

Also, I'm on my mobile, so I cannot view the passive tree, node names, or their properties, but I still believe that "MGoH" cluster could be better utilized by MoM (i.e., moved slightly closer).

The MgoH cluster is useless in end-game for a melee MoM combatant.

+2 mana does nothing at that stage. It can carry you a bit up to cruel, but on the other hand why would you spec into Mind over mater at that stage? Your aura's serve more purpose, both defensively and offensively.

You see, this is why I included that qualifier (bolded) ^-^

Scrap MGoH placement, then; I was thinking it provided ~4 to 6 total points per hit. It needs a slight buff, then. Not too great, because it cannot be single handedly powerful for massive AoE's, but enough that it is a useful complement for most builds. It won't carry MoM, for sure, but I feel ~4-6 points per hit should be enough to comfortably support other recovery methods. A little extra "cushion," if you will.

The important thing to note, is that the mechanic scales naturally with quantity of proximal threats, or in other words, always provides the same degree of support relative to the number of potential incoming hits. This makes it (imo) an ideal candidate to start with, along with a %leech rate notable, and mana flask notable, all within reasonable proximity to where a duelist might path.

Beyond that, what should be behind MoM is a cluster that is to MoM, as AI is to CI (8-8-8 mana; some % more mana). This would not make CoD obsolete (as PA does with Hyrri) because the cluster would function as a lesser to EB, which is what CoD does.

"

goetzjam a écrit :

Show me these broken builds using the passives on the tree. You are suggesting people travel and get EB, MoM (on the tree) and phase acro? That is a long way to travel. If you are suggesting the combo would be too OP with a slight adjustment moving it actually further way from acro\phase then IDK if you understand its position on the tree fully. If its too OP to be move anywhere, then why exactly don't we see people using it now, when according to you its in a better potion.

Where I suggested it be moved is actually FURTHER from acro\phase, not closer. Its simply closer to the casters then its current position, which is completely useless.

MoM should be for casters, not for some stupid hybrid melee class, the whole idea came from D2's shield, guess who used it there.

This won't be "broken as fuck" if moved to where I suggested only give players the option to invest a few points into getting the passive on the tree instead of the current ~12 point investment it is currently.

Just search for invalesco freeze pulser if your interested and like i said, he uses CoD.

But he also goes for EB/acro/phase acro while running AA. Making him insanely tanky.

And if i remember correctly your position was below the evasion cluster of scion, which is closer to EB and ACRO.

And like also mentioned before, any trapper build can go for EB/MoM/IR since they get good base damage.

Peace,

-Boem-

@CHP yeah, i read that part, just thought i would explain why it doesn't suffice atm and becomes void in lategame. And if you make the clusters stronger they can become OP pretty rapidly if scaled with an AS% build.

There's something that just feels wrong about always hiding clusters behind keystones to ensure items granting those keystones aren't as good.

I mean, I can't quite put my finger on what that is, but there's something.