Please Remove MoM from Tree

Wait people are legit ok with the keystone never being picked up and forcing users to wear a unique chest as a life based caster?

IDK about you but that seems completely asinine. MoM's current location will never be viable for a life based caster, it is simply impossible to make it efficiently work.

I'm all open for other keystone or build enabling ideas, but also don't believe that discussion is necessary directed at the topic of MoM in the tree.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Wait people are legit ok with the keystone never being picked up and forcing users to wear a unique chest as a life based caster?

IDK about you but that seems completely asinine. MoM's current location will never be viable for a life based caster, it is simply impossible to make it efficiently work.

I'm all open for other keystone or build enabling ideas, but also don't believe that discussion is necessary directed at the topic of MoM in the tree.

The chest is an opportunity cost, a really small one for a spell-caster.

and as long as eldritch battery remains where it is, with the synergy it provides to MoM, caster will always have to use the chest for it's functionality and as such at least have "some" form of penalty associated with this synergy.

Arguably a retarded small penalty, since the chest is the only one that offers mana regen and a reasonable amount of flat mana.

Unlike melee/weapon users gear has a lot of freedom since damage scales of gem levels and not with gear directly.(not to the same extend as a weapon user) As such, having CoD is a very low cost for the benefit in EHP gained. Coupled with the fact casters have very little use for reservation on mana only makes it better.

So yes, i am completely fine with life casters needing this chest if they want MoM. Anything short from locking it in an item-slot would make it a BiS option for them.(arguably it already is, even with the drawback of losing an armor slot)

The focus should be on giving MoM functionality in it's current location. Not on improving the situation for casters even more.

Ever wondered why there is no unique with EB on it? I can promise you it's because of MoM. Either you have MoM on an item OR you have EB on one. The synergy is to strong and allows to many benefits to be stacked.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : also my thread disproves your assessment, the key-stone is being used in it's current position. It just needs some tweaks to be worth it in the current iteration of the game.(that is to say, use it without using EB in tandem)

Ok, big difference between having EB on and item and having MoM on an item.

The MoM idea was "paid for" by the unqiue supporter Hrishi and GGG liked the idea so much they also added it as a keystone, they know its really powerful with EB so simply placed it directly opposite of the tree.

Many issues exists from this. The keystone is located in an area where that class can't even use it, they have to do so many things to even attempt to make it useful for their class its not worth the time.

From a balance perspective we've already been over why it was so far away from EB, I can respect that, but when every single caster desires the same chest (basically) because its simply so inefficient to use it otherwise then you have a problem. Poe's design is one that typically the statement "rares are the best items in the game" but with MoM's location it simply isn't.

The focus should be to give duelist an actual keystone worth taking, that works for it, without making it into this sort of build around bullshit you mention.

The ranger\shadow don't have to "build around" acro\phase they simply use it.

The marauder doesn't have to build around RT, he simply uses it (and can respec out later if need be)

I could go on and on, but the point is the item shouldn't be forced onto every single caster and the keystone location of MoM can simply be moved slightly upwards and replaced on the tree location with something that will make going duelist worth it.

Instant leech could be scaled like vaal pact is, it's not a case of it always being overpowered. The point is that the 12.5% rate limits low base mana users of MoM extremely heavily compared to a high base user such as one using EB. An improved rate would work too, but wouldn't you want to be able to not need to increase your max mana for anything but increasing the damage mitigation and not the rate? Even at 40% effectiveness like VP, I'd prefer instant over rate.

As for goetz, life based casters wanting to use MoM should need to either use CoD or face the passive cost. The passive cost is balanced around the fact that you can have absurd amounts of ES on a chest. As Boem said there are even some builds that will want to go down toward MoM anyway. The combo is extremely strong and until 800 ES chests stop existing, the gap will need to stay.

Meanwhile, I still think the keystone fits the dexterity area. Not thematically, but mechanically having 30% mitigation from life on the hits you don't evade or dodge is really useful and gives an option other than life stacking. With the downside of not reserving every bit of your mana of course.

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goetzjam a écrit :

Ok, big difference between having EB on and item and having MoM on an item.

The MoM idea was "paid for" by the unqiue supporter Hrishi and GGG liked the idea so much they also added it as a keystone, they know its really powerful with EB so simply placed it directly opposite of the tree.

Many issues exists from this. The keystone is located in an area where that class can't even use it, they have to do so many things to even attempt to make it useful for their class its not worth the time.

From a balance perspective we've already been over why it was so far away from EB, I can respect that, but when every single caster desires the same chest (basically) because its simply so inefficient to use it otherwise then you have a problem. Poe's design is one that typically the statement "rares are the best items in the game" but with MoM's location it simply isn't.

The focus should be to give duelist an actual keystone worth taking, that works for it, without making it into this sort of build around bullshit you mention.

The ranger\shadow don't have to "build around" acro\phase they simply use it.

The marauder doesn't have to build around RT, he simply uses it (and can respec out later if need be)

I could go on and on, but the point is the item shouldn't be forced onto every single caster and the keystone location of MoM can simply be moved slightly upwards and replaced on the tree location with something that will make going duelist worth it.

People use CoD because it is "cost efficient" not because it is BIS.

A 900 ES chest with solid rolls will far outclass CoD even with the travel cost to MoM's current location.

A carnal armor with IR and MoM taken will even yield better EHP results.(combined with AA flat reduction)

You don't see people do this because people prefer to make builds that are cheap, yet fun to play.

CoD replacing a multiple exalt item and being a "guaranteed" drop in a league allows for it to be build around. It allows planning and a security when developing your build.

It's also a chest that is not competing with other builds. A top ES chest will obviously have competition on the economic market, allowing a chance of you not getting it. CoD's drop at a stable rate and have a stable cost.

Peace,

-Boem-

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As for goetz, life based casters wanting to use MoM should need to either use CoD or face the passive cost. The passive cost is balanced around the fact that you can have absurd amounts of ES on a chest. As Boem said there are even some builds that will want to go down toward MoM anyway. The combo is extremely strong and until 800 ES chests stop existing, the gap will need to stay.

The gap simply forces a unqiue chest as BiS for life based casters, not really a good design option when the vast majority of casters want CoD instead of paying that harsh of a tax to get MoM on the tree.

I'm not asking for it to be right next to EB, simply in a reachable location that isn't 10+ skill points.

I mean lets compare keystone if you want then. Acro\phase takes a total of 5 point investment and gives you 40% attack dodge and 30% spell dodge, with block\armor\es as downsides? One could argue that acro\phase is that many more times powerful then MoM (hence the penalties), but you don't see it behind 10+ skill point investment do you?

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Meanwhile, I still think the keystone fits the dexterity area. Not thematically, but mechanically having 30% mitigation from life on the hits you don't evade or dodge is really useful and gives an option other than life stacking. With the downside of not reserving every bit of your mana of course.

One of the other issues is that the duelist doesn't have really any reason to start as him, his keystone "IR" in PoE's current state is quite useless.

Any design of the tree that forces such a heavy tax on MoM users will just enable CoD to remain BiS for casters, talk about diversity, when the lack of diversity is what truly is being shown.


Edit: no one wears a 900 ES chest and does MoM, 900 es chest aren't even around early enough. Part of the issue I do think is people invest into linking CoD because they know that point for point there investment will pay off now, while they can increase their mana pool (after reserves) by 10% or whatever number it isn't worth relinking another chest to use again.

So yes, you are right it has some factor of cost to it, but at the same time, is MoM so OP with 7 less skill point investment, probably not. Until its moved not even a well rolled 400es hybrid can compete with CoD.

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goetzjam a écrit :

From a balance perspective we've already been over why it was so far away from EB, I can respect that, but when every single caster desires the same chest (basically) because its simply so inefficient to use it otherwise then you have a problem. Poe's design is one that typically the statement "rares are the best items in the game" but with MoM's location it simply isn't.

The focus should be to give duelist an actual keystone worth taking, that works for it, without making it into this sort of build around bullshit you mention.

The ranger\shadow don't have to "build around" acro\phase they simply use it.

The marauder doesn't have to build around RT, he simply uses it (and can respec out later if need be)

I could go on and on, but the point is the item shouldn't be forced onto every single caster and the keystone location of MoM can simply be moved slightly upwards and replaced on the tree location with something that will make going duelist worth it.

Fact is that for certain builds, uniques are the best items in the game, because they need the unique to function efficiently. Ghudda's scion discharger that uses both malachais simula and volls protector for example could potentially use rares by taking the BM keystone and using the PCoC support, but it would be less efficient for that builds specific setup. Same deal with MoM on a life based caster, you're sacrificing other options to make that choice by using CoD. But could use another chest and take the passive keystone if you really want or need that other chest, be it a rare or unique.

Meanwhile MoM is much more like VP than anything else and VP most definitely needs to be build around. A duelist keystone that does not require any building around is IR, which if anything lets you ignore your other options much like RT does.

Your comparing acro/phase acro to MoM in a vacuum, while it is in fact the synergy between EB and MoM that is the issue that prevents MoM from being placed in another spot.

Lets imagine for instance that a new ondars guile is put in the passive tree.

It reads something like

"doubles chance to evade projectile attacks, grants 50% MORE armor"

Now you have a direct synergy between stacking ondars guile and acro/phase acro.

In this hypothetical scenario, would you let ondars guile remain where it is in comparison to acro/phase acro, or would one or the other be moved in the passive tree in relation to the other?

As it stands MoM is a very hollow key-stone. This is demonstrates by it's clear uselessness in its current position. In comparison eldritch battery has a personality and has meaning and multiple purposes.

MoM in itself, does not. It lacks a personality or trait. It only gains power when coupled with EB and the top side of the passive tree.

It's this lack of personality or character defining that needs to change. Not it's relation to EB.

MoM should become a fully functional STAND ALONE key-stone. Just like all other key-stones.

Peace,

-Boem-

Mind Over Matter keystone passive could be appealing if something good could be done with Blood Magic keystone passive (if it wasn't mechanic/programming hell to stop a broken aspect). *nudge nudge wink wink*