Please Remove MoM from Tree

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Boem a écrit :

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goetzjam a écrit :

Show me these broken builds using the passives on the tree. You are suggesting people travel and get EB, MoM (on the tree) and phase acro? That is a long way to travel. If you are suggesting the combo would be too OP with a slight adjustment moving it actually further way from acro\phase then IDK if you understand its position on the tree fully. If its too OP to be move anywhere, then why exactly don't we see people using it now, when according to you its in a better potion.

Where I suggested it be moved is actually FURTHER from acro\phase, not closer. Its simply closer to the casters then its current position, which is completely useless.

MoM should be for casters, not for some stupid hybrid melee class, the whole idea came from D2's shield, guess who used it there.

This won't be "broken as fuck" if moved to where I suggested only give players the option to invest a few points into getting the passive on the tree instead of the current ~12 point investment it is currently.

Just search for invalesco freeze pulser if your interested and like i said, he uses CoD.

But he also goes for EB/acro/phase acro while running AA. Making him insanely tanky.

And if i remember correctly your position was below the evasion cluster of scion, which is closer to EB and ACRO.

And like also mentioned before, any trapper build can go for EB/MoM/IR since they get good base damage.

Peace,

-Boem-

@CHP yeah, i read that part, just thought i would explain why it doesn't suffice atm and becomes void in lategame. And if you make the clusters stronger they can become OP pretty rapidly if scaled with an AS% build.

My original position was off of sentinel, which is further away from acro\phase, not to mention the current pathing to go acro>mom allows for you to grab ondars on the way for free as well, mine doesn't.

EB\MOM\IR is different then eb\mom\acro\phase\ondars.

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There's something that just feels wrong about always hiding clusters behind keystones to ensure items granting those keystones aren't as good.

I mean, I can't quite put my finger on what that is, but there's something.

In some terms yes, in others not really. For example I wouldn't be opposed to something being added behind MoM (assuming it was moved) to allow for the keystone to compete with the chest.

As it stands now the difference between acro\phase and mom with their counterparts is huge.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

There's something that just feels wrong about always hiding clusters behind keystones to ensure items granting those keystones aren't as good.

I mean, I can't quite put my finger on what that is, but there's something.

If you're talking about my suggestion (mana behind MoM), then it is a rare case where the affix doesn't compete with the cluster, because they're used differently.

The cluster (with mana appended) provides things already available on the tree excepting more-mana, but that only makes other mana nodes slightly more efficient (i.e., reduces various "traveling taxes" to acquire sufficient mana). That is something the affix already does via being independent of tree pathing, allowing (relatively, by comparison) free access to EB.

@Boem: Aye, I agree, but I feel 2 per hit is too little, which is why I suggested a slight buff. Granted, 4-6 would be 1-200% more, but 1-200% more than not a lot is a little bit more than not a lot. IMO, my suggested 6 is likely too much (since MGoH scaling can easily explode if not carefully controlled), which is why I listed it as my ceiling.. either way, the cluster itself, or the sum of MGoH available on the tree could be adjusted slightly.

If I were making something to put behind MoM, it would be the following, in this order:
(normal node) 4% of Damage taken from Mana before Life
(normal node) 3% of Damage taken from Mana before Life
(normal node) 2% of Damage taken from Mana before Life
(Notable) 20% of Chaos Damage taken from Mana before Life; 1% of Damage taken from Mana before Life

But that's a big if. Because I wouldn't.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

If I were making something to put behind MoM, it would be the following, in this order:
(normal node) 4% of Damage taken from Mana before Life
(normal node) 3% of Damage taken from Mana before Life
(normal node) 2% of Damage taken from Mana before Life
(Notable) 20% of Chaos Damage taken from Mana before Life; 1% of Damage taken from Mana before Life

But that's a big if. Because I wouldn't.

You could get roughly 31% damage taken to mana which would yield a free MoM without any mana investment, just pure item investment.

And most chaos damage in this game is DoT, which MoM doesn't interact with, so that line would not even make sense ore violate the ground rules of MoM that keeps it in check.(= works on "hits")

Also my suggestion doesn't make the key-stone compete with the chest. It creates a fundamental difference between the two.

One designed around the top of the passive tree and as such caster aligned. Based around mana regeneration and sizable active pool.

And the other designed around the bottom of the tree, with lack of mana/intelligence and as such based around a smaller mana pool and as a result of that, leach instead of trying to multiple a retarded small mana regen value for a huge investment cost.

Which is currently the case.

I would create two different types of MoM creating valid choice, instead of reducing choice and placing it in an obscure place without any utility/synergy to its area.

Peace,

-Boem-

Aye, it's a good thing that's a big if ;) ... What you (Scrotie) wrote would compete with the item affix in a seriously bad way, which is precisely what you don't like about gated nodes and notables. I don't really understand why you'd propose such a thing o.O

I believe the logic behind it goes like this (assume a few things):
-The MoM keystone requires a little bit of leech support to be properly functional.
-Testing proves too much leech rate is too overpowering on the tree for non MoM users.
-Some leech rate is placed on the tree, and likely accompanied by some overall rebalance. Net change for MoM keystone is 0, so...
-Another node/notable is placed behind MoM.

Does this compete with CoD at all? Absolutely not, because CoD 100% goes for EB, and EB already significantly buffs leech rate. Said notable would not be anything alike what PA is to Hyrri; instead, it supplements the keystone's shortcomings compared to its affix namesake.

KEEP MoM on the duelists side of the tree, however change it so that it gives 40% of mana taken before life and change the CoD unique so that it provides only 30% mana taken beforee like.

Problem solved

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vangrandson a écrit :

KEEP MoM on the duelists side of the tree, however change it so that it gives 40% of mana taken before life and change the CoD unique so that it provides only 30% mana taken beforee like.

Problem solved

That solves nothing, creates more problems.

The problem with its placement is that it requires extreme over-speccing to sustain mana loss on top of mana costs. What you propose is like saying "make the problem 33% worse, problem solved."

Lol?

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vangrandson a écrit :

KEEP MoM on the duelists side of the tree, however change it so that it gives 40% of mana taken before life and change the CoD unique so that it provides only 30% mana taken beforee like.

Problem solved

Obvious troll is obvious?

o.O tha fuck.

Peace,

-Boem-

I like the idea of MoM where it is, but not how it works. I like the idea of mana/hybrid pots being really useful and mana being a resource you don't simply stack regen on. I love the idea of mana not being just used for reservation. I love the idea of mana being something you don't just stack regen on an try to get 1:1 regen/expenditure on. It just isn't working right as it is.

The keystone needs a rework, for starters with theme. "Mind over Matter" in the ranger/duelist area? Change the name to "unyielding will" or "battle stamina" or something less witchy. Make it seem more like your mana is instead energy or stamina, like in a game like dark souls, skyrim etc and not a supernatural resource (which the original term mana is).

Next, add a new mechanic to it, as-is the keystone has no flavour and could go anywhere on the tree. Even avatar of fire has a reason to be in a strength-intelligence area alongside lots of elemental nodes.
It needs to be something that will fit with the local nodes, such as flask use and small mana gains, rather than a simply high base mana. Something that fits the general theme of dexterity. Players who want to capitalise on high base mana and regen instead of this new mechanic will use CoD, builds taking the keystone with local nodes will benefit from it the most.

So how about this: "Mana leech applies instantly"
Mana leech is a pure dexterity gem and the 12.5%/s rate cap makes it unreliable for a MoM user with a low base mana. All other local mana nodes focus on alternatives to simple regen, which leech is one of. CoD is often used by spellcasters, so to capitalise on it they will need to use the support gem, unlike bow/melee users. Most current users of mana leech have all mana reserved and rely on leech to refill only a very small amount, so this addition will be only really useful for current users of the keystone.

Overall having a lot of base mana and regen already covers what leech is needed for, so CoD users will very likely not become overpowered with an addition to the MoM keystone. They're likely spellcasters, other than wanders, who will have most if not all their mana reserved anyway and likely not use CoD. I can't see any immediate issue to the addition and it'd be a nice boon for keystone users.

So, how about it?

^instant mana leach would be OP.

I tested a MoM melee duelist with 800 mana unreserved (total pool of 1200)

And with instant leach i would never drop below 800 in my current iteration of the build which is not called for/needed.

Which is exactly why i suggested an enhanced leach rate to combat the low mana total(and thus mana leach cap rate)

Something like 40% should more then suffice imo. With the mana leach gem offering another 20% but taking up a gem slot, a useless gem slot since a melee build using this will need blood magic to not stop hitting mid combat after a large hit.

Peace,

-Boem-