Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

"

sidtherat a écrit :

"

mark1030 a écrit :

"

bunnyxian90 a écrit :

But I always need to vendor my lower value uniques since I don't have much Stash space to store them to vendor up in poexyz.
Meanwhile people with hundreds of stash tabs able to horde an incredible amount of little things which they can sell over time, even by little but it still an advantage.
Some uniques or rares with potential value around 1-5 chaos, I got to vendor them all.
I even give up on making Chaos Recipe or Regal Recipe already, there is no space for that.

Its kind of one sided when players with at least dozens of stash tabs are the only one saying Stash Tabs are for convenience only, while its obviously have all sort of advantage towards the default 4 stash tab users; time, effort, space, income, possessions and wider range of item sales.
I'm the one that bought a stash tab bundle after given up the effort of mule account or character, they simply not easy to handle since whenever you need an item from them, you need to relog out and in again or opening another client for another account.

And to that I say, how valuable is your time? It takes time to sort/find/upload to shop/respond to whispers/actual trade when you have lots of stash tabs and items for sale. A player with 4 tabs has an obvious time advantage over people with 200 tabs. Can it be argued that it doesn't take more time to upkeep a larger stash? So I say the "advantage" cited in this thread is entirely subjective and dependent on the each individual player's values. If you value having more items, it's an advantage. If you don't, at best it's no advantage and at worst it's a detriment (more time wasted organizing stash, especially after every 4 month league ends). So I say this can just as easily be called pay 2 lose because you lose time (anybody disputing that more stash tabs = more time spent at your stash?).

lol wut??

Which part went over your head? Time has value, no? Time has different value to different people, no? Would a player who wants to spend their time killing stuff enjoy time spent not killing stuff instead?

"

Fruz a écrit :

convenience and advantage are not synonyms ( at all ).

It sure is convenient to put in less effort and get the same rewards, or to put in the same effort and get more rewards. Totally not advantages.

"

sidtherat a écrit :

two players of equal skill and time 'wasted': one has 4 tabs, second has 40

who will get further in 2 week race? who will trade-up to gear required for end game faster? who will accumulate more wealth in a time unit? wealth determines how far one can get in this game. even gear-independent builds benefit greatly from 20/20 gems or 21/20 gems, from lvl4 empower etc. all these can be bought with wealth that guy with 40 tabs will accumulate faster

it is a direct gameplay advantage.

the only people denying that are the same very people that defend ggg from 'trolls' in each and every post on this very forums. all 5 of them.

I disagree. I'm not defending GGG from trolls. I just think your argument is based on what you think is logical but not necessarily true. Ask the top racers what percentage of their time they spend at their stash, and I think you will not get the answer you think. I think more than likely you will get many different answers.

"

mark1030 a écrit :

I just think your argument is based on what you think is logical but not necessarily true. Ask the top racers what percentage of their time they spend at their stash, and I think you will not get the answer you think. I think more than likely you will get many different answers.

You didn't respond to my last probing on this argument (RNG P2W, convoluted P2W), so I'll probe again. Something about the argument "it's not guaranteed P2W if people don't abuse it" just feels wrong.

Is it acceptable for GGG to sell things that could be abused for an in-game advantage, but aren't guaranteed to be?

"

pneuma a écrit :

"

Fruz a écrit :

convenience and advantage are not synonyms ( at all ).

It sure is convenient to put in less effort and get the same rewards, or to put in the same effort and get more rewards. Totally not advantages.

I don't consider tabs to give a significant enough reward so that we can actually talk about a reward.
Convenience can lead to an advantage, it doesn't make those words synonyms.

"

Mark1030 a écrit :

Ask the top racers what percentage of their time they spend at their stash, and I think you will not get the answer you think. I think more than likely you will get many different answers.

"

sidtherat a écrit :

two players of equal skill and time 'wasted': one has 4 tabs, second has 40

who will get further in 2 week race? who will trade-up to gear required for end game faster? who will accumulate more wealth in a time unit? wealth determines how far one can get in this game. even gear-independent builds benefit greatly from 20/20 gems or 21/20 gems, from lvl4 empower etc. all these can be bought with wealth that guy with 40 tabs will accumulate faster

it is a direct gameplay advantage.

the only people denying that are the same very people that defend ggg from 'trolls' in each and every post on this very forums. all 5 of them.

Depends on RNG. Muling isn't a huge factor in this, I guess RNG is a much bigger one if the two players are literally equal. 2 weeks isn't that long, so RNG has quite a lot of impact on their performance. Not to mention that you can't accumulate that much stuff in two weeks to need 40 tabs.

Rares:
When I find a rare with high life + two resists 30+, I sell it for 5+ chaos.
Usually doesn't take too long before someone shows up and wants it.
My four stash tabs - even one single stash tab - are more than enough to support this.
When I find a rare with "no life and two resists" or "life + one resist", I vendor it.
i could maybe sell it for a fusing, but most likely I won't sell it anyways.

Uniques:
I theoretically could sell all kinds of shit Uniques for 1 fusing, but there are hundreds of people trying to sell shitty Uniques. And even the "useful" Uniques like Wurm's Molt... There's hundreds of them available, I have some of those in my stash since forever, noone ever bothered to ask for them.
So I just vendor most of them after a while.

Gems:
I keep "high demand" gems and offer them for 1 alch to 2 chaos. My 1/2 tab reserved for gems seems to be enough.

Maps:
if you do the 3:1 and chisel recipe on the lower maps, you won't have more than 20 maps anyways.

Currency:
Vendor or trade it "upwards" (like 16 alts -> 1 chaos in trade chat, 4 jewellers -> 1 fusing at vendor), then you don't need much stash space.

---

This is not "whiteknighting", I just don't see how a hoarder with hundreds of stash tabs has a serious advantage.

The only "advantage" is:
He could theoretically one day sell some pitiful rares (that I would have vendored) for 1 fusing/chaos.
Congratulations, he payed $ for this huge advantage.

I think I already wasted more chaos orbs this week on trying to gamble on a 78 amulet than such a hoarder would gain as an "advantage" in a year.

"

Xavderion a écrit :

"

sidtherat a écrit :

two players of equal skill and time 'wasted': one has 4 tabs, second has 40

who will get further in 2 week race? who will trade-up to gear required for end game faster? who will accumulate more wealth in a time unit? wealth determines how far one can get in this game. even gear-independent builds benefit greatly from 20/20 gems or 21/20 gems, from lvl4 empower etc. all these can be bought with wealth that guy with 40 tabs will accumulate faster

it is a direct gameplay advantage.

the only people denying that are the same very people that defend ggg from 'trolls' in each and every post on this very forums. all 5 of them.

Depends on RNG. Muling isn't a huge factor in this, I guess RNG is a much bigger one if the two players are literally equal. 2 weeks isn't that long, so RNG has quite a lot of impact on their performance. Not to mention that you can't accumulate that much stuff in two weeks to need 40 tabs.

You are if you are hoarding all the blue items you find .... in which case, we definitely know who has an advantage there !
/lol

"

pneuma a écrit :

"

mark1030 a écrit :

I just think your argument is based on what you think is logical but not necessarily true. Ask the top racers what percentage of their time they spend at their stash, and I think you will not get the answer you think. I think more than likely you will get many different answers.

You didn't respond to my last probing on this argument (RNG P2W, convoluted P2W), so I'll probe again. Something about the argument "it's not guaranteed P2W if people don't abuse it" just feels wrong.

Is it acceptable for GGG to sell things that could be abused for an in-game advantage, but aren't guaranteed to be?

Do I think something that someone could possibly use as an advantage as pay 2 win? No. If I did, I'd say any cosmetic effect is pay 2 win, because you have an advantage picking your toon out in the middle of a fracas full of party members, monsters and minions, so that you can target monsters better than the guy who can't tell exactly where he is attacking from because he doesn't have wings or a glowing hat. If I did, I'd say any skill effect that helps you identify if you have auras on, Arctic Armour on, and which skills are generated by you and not somebody else using the same skill is pay 2 win. Ever try to choose targets when you use the same attack as somebody nearby? Have you ever got confused about where you are standing and which attack is yours during a fight? Try playing the Elemental Buzzsaw build with others playing the same build and you'll see what I'm talking about. If I did, I'd say portal effects were pay 2 win too, since they give a tangible time advantage in selecting the right portal when 6 are up.

But since everybody seems to agee that all those cosmetic effects I just named are not pay 2 win when clearly they can give players an advantage, I say stash tabs should be treated the same way.

and trading is so easy and fun!