Are Stash Tabs Pay To Win ? Science

"

Shagsbeard a écrit :

If you have eaten any food over the last month, POE is pay to win. Since you wouldn't be playing POE if you hadn't eaten over the last month, you have to pay to play the game, and hence pay to win.

You all are missing the entire point. Stash tabs aren't P2W. P2W is a design philosophy where you make your game unplayable unless people pay. It's not about "advantages". Stash tabs grant an advantage. That doesn't make them P2W.

No, that is 'pay or fail' (or some variation of that term)... which is far worse then simple 'pay to win' and is often what those f2p crapfests we complain about actually are because you either pay up or fail completely without chance. There are also those that let you 'pay for win' (p4w) which is again a different model in which you just buy the end game directly and don't even need to actually play the game at all to 'win' (check the simpsons tapped out game on android). Pay to win (p2w) just makes it slightly easier to 'win' in the long term and is rather mild compared to most of the stuff out there. The sad trend is that most of them that start at pay to win slide into pay for win then right into pay or fail eventually since its all about cash grabs and no actual decent gameplay experience.


edit - so the points of the sliding scale being:

Pay for advantage with failure still being possible, can still compete without payment to some point in pvp and can complete the pve with some mild extra challenge

Pay for outright completion, no failure possible if paid, can still complete pve without payment with a LOT of extra challenge but will not compete with paid accounts in pvp

Pay or else you fail completely at everything, no other route available

"

Veruski a écrit :

"

Xavderion a écrit :

Let's say it's .1%

so at the end of the day, you admit that it's a tangible advantage that can be written down.

thus, argument over. case closed.

yes, this deserved quoting.

Veruski, you took a lot of time to get him to say that, even though we know it's even more than .1% but something, is waaaaay more than nothing, for sure.

i commend thee.

Now everyone agrees, stash tabs are Pay for Advantage, however tiny you want to say that advantage is.

we can now carry on with our days in unison.

Class Dismissed.

The "advantage" is dubious. What is an advantage for one person is a disadvantage for another. How much time does one need to save to have an "advantage". What if you find that the more tabs you have, the more time you spend organizing/renaming/upkeeping them? Does a person with 4 stash tabs play more efficiently than a person with 200? If so, how do you define "advantage"? I know a guy with over 200 stash tabs. I see no advantage he has over me. He hoards items. He's got everything organized and categorized, yet it still takes him some time to find stuff. You hear him say things like "Now, did I put that in the Green Gem tab, or the Quality Gem tab, or the Leveled Gem tab, or the Support Gem tab?" He doesn't trade more than me. He doesn't complete recipes more than me. All he does is save more than me. If an advantage isn't really an advantage, how it be paying to win?

I've heard people say that it takes time to log into another account, party up, and mule items. What happens at the end of the challenge leagues? The guy with the mules spends exactly no more time on his items. The guy with stash tabs has a whole bunch of Remove Only tabs that either need to be organized into his Standard/Hardcore stash, or he ends up with magnitudes of extra tabs with the same names that he has to look through to find something. When you have a tab labeled "bows" in Standard, and remove only tabs labeled "bows" from Anarchy, Domination, Ambush, and any future leagues, at what point does this supposed advantage become a disadvantage. Even if you vendored everything from your remove only tabs, it would still take a lot more time than a person with fewer tabs.

How can the statements "IF someone were to use a mule instead of a stash tab" and "It's a quantifiable amount of advantage" and "that someone MAY have an advantage" prove that this is P2W? How can something be quantifiable yet no one saying that can actually quantify it?

P.S. I think the word Xavderion was looking for is "negligible".

Crusader, I thought you said you haven't played in 2 years. So how did you get a number in a skull in front of your name?

"

mark1030 a écrit :

What is an advantage for one person is a disadvantage for another.

This is a bit of a weird argument.

If GGG sold an item in the shop that randomly gave you an exalt or took one of your exalts, is that P2W? Some people would get a huge boost in power, others would lose it.

If GGG sells an item in the shop that allows the player to gain 100x experience, but only if they jump through a million hoops first, is that P2W? Guess you'd have to measure the hoops pretty carefully.

"

mark1030 a écrit :

P.S. I think the word Xavderion was looking for is "negligible".

Negligible doesn't mean non-existent, despite our sincere desires for it to mean exactly that.

I get the argument for it being negligible (as in, low enough of an efficiency boost that it's not worth worrying about), but it's unreasonable to make an argument that 0.0001 = 0.

For those who bought stash tabs are now P2W...man i wanna cry ...QQ.
BAN ALL OF THEM PLS GGG.

"

Veruski a écrit :

the practical advantage is many exalts.

=)

but, nice try.

Cool story.

"

Crusader_7 a écrit :

Now everyone agrees, stash tabs are Pay for Advantage, however tiny you want to say that advantage is.

And there's a huge grey area between 'advantage' and outright 'winning'.

Try rewording your argument and you might find more people agreeing with you.

Please drop the 'class' pretense. You are nowhere near qualified or experienced enough to be a PoE teacher to half the people posting here; there are veterans to this debate on both sides. Your approach comes across as obnoxious and condescending.

"

mark1030 a écrit :

Crusader, I thought you said you haven't played in 2 years. So how did you get a number in a skull in front of your name?

Mark you must have read something i wrote wrong, or you read it out of context.

I think what you're talking about is when someone said something about some recipe not being worthwhile or something, for the last 2 years or something. I forget what it was exactly but my response was something like "i haven't played for 2 years. I've played for about 5 months."

Maybe i could have worded it more clearly.

i meant i've ONLY been playing for about 5 months, and that's all. No long gaps since i've started.

as for Charan...

the "Class Dismissed" is simply to do with the fact this thread started with me explaining to 8 year olds in a class, about how Stash Tabs are pay to win (pay for advantage).

they all got A+'s understanding it so easy btw.

I in no way have ever pretended to be a POE guru.

I know a lot, and more than enough to state what i did in this thread as 100% pure fact.

arguing about the term "pay to win" is pointless to me. No one pays to "win" in any such game we call "pay to win". I find it strange there's such resistance here to my other threads on things like cash for low dps pets. Where the term "pay to win" gets said by people, in that context too against what i say, or for it. No one bothers arguing semantics there.

but apparently the definition of pay to win varies with some people, depending on which thread they are typing in. As here for some reason tabs become NOT pay to win, and i suggest the reason why is because some people just don't want to be labeled what they've been labeling others for ages.

am i to really believe this, that some people just didn't know what i meant when i said pay to win, in context of advantage?

that somehow they say advantage of cash for low dps pets would be bad and pay to win, but here when we talk about advantage of stash tabs, people somehow claim it's not pay to win?

i really HATE arguing semantics.

everyone knows what i meant, and if stash tabs as an advantage for cash isn't pay to win, then maybe resistance to cash for low dps pets and cash for mercenaries shouldn't be considered pay to win either.

either that OR they should both be considered pay to win.

take your pick. I couldn't care less besides the fact i just would, as i said before, like to call a spade a spade.

they ARE pay to win.

You keep on ignoring that there is a huge difference between games like Allods, where you can greatly enhance your dps, your defense and your XP - all of which are necessary unless you want to turn it into an endless, frustrating grind - and PoE, where you can actually play the whole game for free, with the slight disadvantage of having to spend a bit of your time on mules.

You say you hate discussing semantics, but semantics in this case are the whole point. Just imagine PoE being labeled pay2win in every forum, by each and every game journalist, in every news snippet, etc. Wouldn't people associate PoE with games that actually are pay2win, i.e. games in which you get stuck, or trail forever behind, or spend countless hours grinding, if you don't spend money?

So while you know yourself that PoE is not a game like that, why do insist on calling it pay2win?