Feedback: RNG rerolling is not crafting, discuss

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I'm actually in favor of a 6L recipe that costs say 1500 fusing. Scrotie is against it.

Nice to hear, sort of just browsing this thread and didn't read all pages, i must have interpret some of your post's wrong.

Apologies.

Then i wonder why Scrotie fears it. Really he should be smart enough to know a 6-link is not the "end of end all" in PoE. Not even if all my characters had one, would i be done with this game, not even close :O!

And i consider that a good thing and one of PoE's greatest ability's.
(not to mention the constant incentive to reroll with forced meta shift's etc)

Edit : sorry scrotie for saying you "fear" it, that's an assumption on my part, maybe your motivation lie's elsewhere around this subject and maybe i feel to see that motivation the same way you do.

It would remove random chance entirely.

Purely random sucks (can be 1 or 6000 or more), purely deterministic sucks (exactly 1500, no more, no less).

There exists an option somewhere in the middle, where each fusing has a chance of working, and that chance raises as you apply more fusings. You'd get a graph like log(x) with an asymptote around the "upper bound" of, say, 3000, but you'd be able to get the 6L starting from your first fusing.

If anything, this encourages the "sunken cost" crafting style, which would cause people to drop a lot of orbs into something they've already dropped orbs into, even though they may have found a better 6s in the meantime.

^this would also suck when you find an upgrade and need to start from 0 all over again, while you already threw 1000+ on another armor.

Just saying, everything has pro's and con's.

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It would remove random chance entirely.

Purely random sucks (can be 1 or 6000 or more), purely deterministic sucks (exactly 1500, no more, no less).

I have a problem with this attitude btw.

Neither one of those option "suck" at it's core since it's purely determined by the player what he desires more.

does he want to gamble? Ok go with the random chance recipe (aka how fusings now work)

Does he want to have a 6-link on a very specific item and has the endurance to sit it out until he is able to afford the crafting requirement? Ok go with option B.

But know comes the problem. there is no option B, players are forced to utilize option A without an alternative if they so prefer/desire.

And since it is this that yields "good player experience", they are fucked.

More options create's better overall good player experience. And i understand the people who have no desire to gamble but want a deterministic outcome, there is nothing wrong with this mindset.

However in the current game-state, they do not belong in PoE and i see no reason as to why that should be. Other then GGG being stubborn.

Edit : to clarify option B does exist, in the form of trading. However this is limited in possibility's.

1) does the market have an armor with 6-link + stats available my very specific theory-craft desires?

2) do i yield a "good player experience" from buying it of somebody else as opposed to crafting it myself. (and putting in the time to yield that result)

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

You really need to stop comparing trading vs. Crafting/recipes.

Trading will ALWAYS* be better. There's nothing wrong with that concept. The degree to which its better is one thing, but it will and should be better.

* Unless you're making an item that doesn't exist.

P.S. whomever thinks 1k fusings is a lot. That's around one month of grinding of just alts, jewelers, 6S, and fusings. If you play around 3 hours/day avg. Maybe 4.

One month of 3 hours a day, idk I've been playing since open beta started roughly and I've never had more than 2ex total for my whole acct.

Granted my other builds weren't as efficient as MISTERKNIFE, but I doubt u get 1500 fusings in a month unless u stream, rmt, bot, or otherwise some activity that doesn't involve playing the game like flipping for orbs.

Get IIQ run maps. The more IIQ from maps multiplies with your base. They add up quick.

Edit. Recently, I just sold off my chromes that built up. Had about 1k of them. Got about 2 ex. Sold my fusing stash yesterday as well. That got me 5 ex.

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

1. Things are always sold at or above cost, never below cost irl. Your entire argument is hilarious since it changes this fact conveniently for your case.

Apparently you've never been to Walmart. Small business set prices at or above their own costs, then Walmart goes and charges an even lower price, which Walmart can afford because their costs are lower. One's personal cost is irrelevant.

Even that is assuming the seller is making income instead of merely revenue. Going-out-of-business sales, yard sales, most Craigslist transactions, selling stuff to pawn shops... all examples where items are sold not to create a profit, but to partially mitigate loss.

"Always sold at or above cost" is not an accurate description of all economic transactions, merely the profitable ones. Profitability is by no means guaranteed, nor is it always sustainable once reached.

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Boem a écrit :

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

I'm actually in favor of a 6L recipe that costs say 1500 fusing. Scrotie is against it.

Apologies.

Then i wonder why Scrotie fears it. Really he should be smart enough to know a 6-link is not the "end of end all" in PoE. Not even if all my characters had one, would i be done with this game, not even close :O!

I don't believe "fear" is the most appropriate name for the feeling; "disapproves" fits better.

Why do I disapprove? Because I actually believe RNG is a good thing. I am in favor of vendor formula to provide a minimum level of RNG-free itemization, but that's a lot like saying I'm in favor of a 5% minimum on chance to evade rather than letting it dip below 5%, or that I'm in favor of the 2% minimum on XP effectiveness in overleveled areas rather than letting it dip below 2%. RNG-free is just fine to establish a baseline from which progression can begin; it's a horrible idea when it comes to progression in general.

Players should be able to use vendor formula to create items which would generally have buyouts of 1 Chaos or less on the market, if they don't feel like trading for them; it's perfectly reasonable to get to 72-75 maps with such items. They shouldn't be able to vendor up items which cost significantly more than that; render unto gambling that which is gambling's. A 1+ Exalt 5L is completely out of the picture, much less anything 6L.

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Boem a écrit :

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It would remove random chance entirely.

Purely random sucks (can be 1 or 6000 or more), purely deterministic sucks (exactly 1500, no more, no less).

I have a problem with this attitude btw.

Neither one of those option "suck" at it's core since it's purely determined by the player what he desires more.

I shouldn't have to say "in my opinion" after everything I write to imply that it is, in fact, my own opinion.

Given that I'm not GGG, my opinion is only that and has no other meaning. Hell, if you can figure out a way for my feedback to directly turn into code in the game, let me know.

Besides, the deterministic method exists already, as you've said, in the form of trading. If a random chance option is removed, then all the people that enjoy the slot-machine are left out in the cold.

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Veruski a écrit :

some of us think that orbs should be useful beyond tweaking uniques.

if you play game with trade, and crafting has an ounce of RNG, it makes orbs strictly inferior to trading. even an ounce of RNG makes crafting unprofitable because buying an item you want will be cheaper and easier.

you can have a 6L recipe for 5k alts, for example. a guranteed random white 6L.
well guess what, it wont be shit because you still have to roll mods on it.
even worse, it will be no different than buying a white high-level 6L for 10ex

people proposing an in-between solution simply dont realize that RNG vs guaranteed is binary.

trading will always be better unless its prohibited or BoA items are introduced.

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

Get IIQ run maps. The more IIQ from maps multiplies with your base. They add up quick.

Edit. Recently, I just sold off my chromes that built up. Had about 1k of them. Got about 2 ex. Sold my fusing stash yesterday as well. That got me 5 ex.

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

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Boem a écrit :

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

I wasn't talking to you, but thanks for the post.

But i was! well partially, my message was aimed at you and Scrotie.

Since you both seem to fear the day 6-links become more accessible, when in reality they are not the end-game at all.

And i am truly curious to where your fear comes from around this issue.

I'm actually in favor of a 6L recipe that costs say 1500 fusing. Scrotie is against it.

how is a 1500 fusing recipe (~35 ex on std, right ?) any different than outright buying a 6L ?

unless you mean 6L item of any rarity with 1500 fuses guaranteed.