Feedback: RNG rerolling is not crafting, discuss

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

I'm against being able to craft end game affixes.

Then by extension you're against crafting in general, since that is what crafting is for an endgame-oriented game.

I'm against the ability to craft end-game affixes but I do not see myself as anti-crafting. In my view, the proper role of crafting — by which I mean vendor recipes, not gambling with orbs — is to provide a minimum baseline of functionality to all players, regardless of whether they trade or not, so they can tackle the content. Not necessarily tackle it easily, just tackle it.

Essentially, just imagine in your mind the types of items with buyouts of about 1 Chaos or so. Not all of these items are horrible from a self-found perspective; you can find some nice little +Life dual-res pieces without a whole lot of effort. Items of roughly that power level are what I imagine as the proper output of a formula-based crafting system. You want better than that, sorry, either farm, trade, or gamble. In other words, I think the main function of crafting should be to take the "budget shopping" feeling of general upgrades you normally get when you trade and get a character to A3Merc, and apply that level of gear upgrading to self-found players as well (although they might pay slightly more for it).

There should absolutely not be a vendor formula for 5L or 6L.

I think the best general plan would be:
1. Make it so Regal Orbs normally add two affixes, not just one.
2. Make Regal Orbs drop a little bit more than they currently do; this is because it's going to be a key crafting orb.
3. Make a slew of vendor recipes which allow you to get any one specific affix from a Regal as opposed to two generic ones. For example, if you Alteration up a +Life, +res magic item, you could give it a guaranteed second res, but now you need more 3 Exalt to max the item out on affixes, instead of 2.
4. To supplement the default plan of Alting magic items until it becomes good enough for a Regal formula, allow formula to automatically and cheaply achieve some lower affixes. The 2 or 3 highest tiers of affixes wouldn't be available with this method, but you'd have more control, and most importantly, adding one affix wouldn't overwrite previous affixes.
5. Crafting 4 or more affixes onto an item would be impossible.

The end result would be that, for slightly more than 1 Regal, you could have an item with a mid-tier prefix, a mid-tier suffix, and one top-tier affix, all of your choice.

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Legatus1982 a écrit :

I'd like to hear everyone else's opinions on this.

My idea of crafting is you pick the mods you want and use crafting materials to produce that item. RNG like chaos orbs, transmutes, alterations, and so forth are really not crafting at all IMO. Eternals and the like are the closest thing this game has to real crafting but the average player probably won't ever have access to those, eternals and exalts are pretty much restricted to the top-tier players who put countless hours of work into the game.

The recipes are pretty good for leveling, but as far as crafting in endgame goes (where it matters) the recipes are pretty much worthless.

Discuss

RNG rerolling IS crafting, as long as you have enough roll attempts and there could be various BiS results, not just one. Sadly, PoE often fails there - currency drop is too small, and there is usually a single BiS mod combination for highly-desired items.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

1. Make it so Regal Orbs normally add two affixes, not just one.

Why dont add another orb instead, that adds TWO afixes to rare item? More choices for crafting is better.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

2. Make Regal Orbs drop a little bit more than they currently do; this is because it's going to be a key crafting orb.

Increase droprates of high-level maps, and Regal will drop much more often (from regal recipe).

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

3. Make a slew of vendor recipes which allow you to get any one specific affix from a Regal as opposed to two generic ones. For example, if you Alteration up a +Life, +res magic item, you could give it a guaranteed second res, but now you need more 3 Exalt to max the item out on affixes, instead of 2.

Recipes for adding specific top-tier affixes would be great, but that's absolutely new territory for discussion.

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

RNG rerolling IS crafting

No, it's not. It's gambling. Would you call throwing coins into a slot machine "crafting"? Because that's what PoE "crafting" is at the moment.

Actual crafting means the player specifies a desired result, gathers the required ingredients, and combines them in such a way to predictably achieve a specific end-product.

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iiell a écrit :

There is only a few true crafting recipes in this game. A good example is 1 of each 2-stone type ring creates a prismatic ring. This is crafting. The result is always the same.

What GGG has done was taken the gambling idea from Diablo 2 and further extended it. Instead of gambling with worthless gold, you gamble with rare and valuable currency items. Imagine gambling in D2 with Stones of Jordan. That is basically what we are doing in POE.

The only way GGG can go beyond that without major changes to the current system is via vendor recipes, which isn't a bad idea. Imagine if you could vendor a rare ring, 2 exalted orbs, 5 chromatic orbs and 10 alteration orbs and get 13% resist all added to your rare ring.

Or perhaps, some rare boots, 2 exalted orbs and a quicksilver flask to get 25% increased movement speed added.

There is great potential in vendor recipes, similar to the Horadric Cube in D2....

This. I like this.

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rrtson a écrit :

No, it's not. It's gambling. Would you call throwing coins into a slot machine "crafting"? Because that's what PoE "crafting" is at the moment.

Well, you've specified "100% deterministic crafting", as an example, a crafting in Allods3. You gather X materials, recipe for base item, spell for enchantment, and combine them all with guaranteed result.

An example of pure gambling is.... item drops. When killing a mob, you have absolutely no idea, what items it will drop.

There are a lot of games, where producing items dont have 100% guaranteed result. For example, crafting an orange item in Horadric Cube in D3 gives you an item of selected type with few guaranteed mods (which can vary in power) and several random mods as well. From one hand, it's crafting, because some results are deterministic, from other hand, it's gambling (results arent guaranteed.

Same for PoE - orb rerolls/add properties are in fact both crafting and gamble. The question is - which is prevailing there? Obviously, gambling prevails, but still, it isnt 100% gamble, i think.

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

The question is - which is prevailing there? Obviously, gambling prevails, but still, it isnt 100% gamble, i think.

Then don't call it crafting :)

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

An example of pure gambling is.... item drops. When killing a mob, you have absolutely no idea, what items it will drop.

Correct, that is gambling. To fix this, GGG should make it so that specific types of monsters drop specific types of items. It would give players incentive to farm different areas for specific items, and would make monsters feel more unique. For example, the Burned Miscreations in Lunaris could have a higher chance of dropping fire-based weapons and gems. The Undying Evangelists (proximity shield dudes) in Sceptre of God could have a higher chance of dropping ES-based shields, etc.

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

There are a lot of games, where producing items dont have 100% guaranteed result. For example, crafting an orange item in Horadric Cube in D3 gives you an item of selected type with few guaranteed mods (which can vary in power) and several random mods as well. From one hand, it's crafting, because some results are deterministic, from other hand, it's gambling (results arent guaranteed.

50% crafting (deterministic) + 50% gambling (random) = can safely be considered crafting.

At the moment, PoE is 100% gambling. There are no orbs that give even slightly deterministic results.

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

Same for PoE - orb rerolls/add properties are in fact both crafting and gamble.

Orbs that reroll/add properties in PoE are 100% gambling. The game draws from the entire pool of available affixes and the player cannot specify even a single stat to be fixed. I don't know where you're seeing crafting.

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rrtson a écrit :

At the moment, PoE is 100% gambling. There are no orbs that give even slightly deterministic results.

You are slightly wrong. There actually are three orb types that yield totally predictable results.
1)Eternal orb. But this is ultra-rare, so what is the point anyway.
2)Orb of scouring. Yeah, this one is not so rare, and it is crafting orb, but see below.
3)Regret orb. But this is not crafting item at all.

Truly irony is the fact that the only two real crafting items are... just stopgaps used for restoring items that were gambled into sh*t with other so-called "crafting" orbs.

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silumit a écrit :

Truly irony is the fact that the only two real crafting items are... just stopgaps used for restoring items that were gambled into sh*t with other so-called "crafting" orbs.

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