Feedback: RNG rerolling is not crafting, discuss

"

SL4Y3R a écrit :

Trading will ALWAYS* be better. There's nothing wrong with that concept. The degree to which its better is one thing, but it will and should be better.

I don't know if I'd go so far as saying "there's nothing wrong with the concept," because it does cause problems on occasion. But yes, trading will always be better.

Now that I think about it, some of the newer forumers here might not be familiar with the Thrift Shop Law, so I should probably restate something from several months ago.



This is an inviolate economic law. It is immutable. No matter how much we buff orbs, even if we tripled the droprate and doubled the chance for "top tier" orb effects... it would still be cheaper on average to trade for the thing than craft it yourself.

Why? It's not rocket science. If you can craft it for an average cost of X, then a price greater than or equal to X simply won't draw customers. If the seller doesn't charge less than X, it'll just sit in the stash. So sellers undercut, and charge less than X.

Sometimes you have temporary market blips where something costs less to craft than to trade. Perhaps a certain unique chest is priced low enough unlinked, and high enough 5-linked, to justify buying the unlinked, crafting them up, and flipping them back onto the market. When these things happen, they don't last long. Flippers figure it out, exploit it, then the market corrects itself in response and the opportunity disappears.

So any plan, and I mean any plan, which is trying to make orb use more efficient than trading is simply doomed to fail. It can barely work short-term and never works long-term.

The only time gambling with orbs tends to pay off is when the market literally can't help you. If you can't trade for an item because no one is selling it, then trading has no comparative price advantage. The creation of better-than-available gear is the only consistently worthwhile application for orbs, and it is where all those orbs you're trading back and forth eventually go (with the exception of those used to roll maps).

"

Legatus1982 a écrit :

It's pretty damn obvious to me who the people are who actually play the game and who the people are that RMT'd or botted for their currency, because you don't have a job and have a 6L without RMT or botting unless you happened to get a 6L drop, the odds of which are worse than winning the fuckin lottery.

I dont know, Ive gotten 2 6L drops in less than 2 years of playing poe while employed full time. also a tabula is cheap as fuck.
for the record, Ive never won the lottery. like, ever.

"

However, as I said, that isn't what the OP was about. The OP was about the fact that none of the currency in this game crafts anything, it just rolls stuff. Only the vendor recipes actually "craft" anything at all, and they set such a low baseline that you are literally able to buy your way (via trading) into gear that is exponentially better with just about nothing currency-wise at all. In any league of your choosing.

like I've said before, it is inherently so in a game where every item can be bought or sold

if you make a 6L affordable in x amount of shards/currency, the end result of economy will increased supply and lowered prices, and in a game where there are no BoA items, there is no real difference between saving up currency for craft and saving up currency to buy exact item you want. craft with fully guaranteed results is basically a glorified vendor recipe.

basically buying a ready 6L will always be better. scrotie touches on WHY its the case.

"

ScrotieMcB a écrit :

"

Boem a écrit :

They would be a lot more happy with a guaranteed high cost recipe, even if it doubled the cost compared to average spending. Simply because they could work towards it and feel a sense of progression in doing so, even at a slow and steady pace.

What's the term for a slow, steady progression towards an inevitable yet time-consuming achievement? Oh, yeah, I remember now. Grinding.

There are many on these forums who have deluded themselves into thinking that RNG is a bad thing, the removal of which would somehow usher in the New Utopia. They do this by blanking out the wince-worthy horror which is RNG's alternative.

I don't mind grinding. In fact, that's how we traders play the economy game: we grind by slowly and surely increasing our wealth through selling drops and flipping.

"

SL4Y3R a écrit :

You really need to stop comparing trading vs. Crafting/recipes.

Trading will ALWAYS* be better. There's nothing wrong with that concept. The degree to which its better is one thing, but it will and should be better.

* Unless you're making an item that doesn't exist.

P.S. whomever thinks 1k fusings is a lot. That's around one month of grinding of just alts, jewelers, 6S, and fusings. If you play around 3 hours/day avg. Maybe 4.

Trading will always be better from an economic standpoint, sure. In reality, the economic factor is not the only one affecting the decisions of an individual; how high the "intrinsic" value of crafting/self-looting is for the individual, also matters.

When the discrepancy in utility between crafting/self-looting versus trading is large, few people find crafting/self-looting to be viable paths in comparison to trading. If the discrepancy is smaller, more people will find crafting/self-looting to be viable paths.

"

ScrotieMcB a écrit :

"

SL4Y3R a écrit :

Trading will ALWAYS* be better. There's nothing wrong with that concept. The degree to which its better is one thing, but it will and should be better.

I don't know if I'd go so far as saying "there's nothing wrong with the concept," because it does cause problems on occasion. But yes, trading will always be better.

Now that I think about it, some of the newer forumers here might not be familiar with the Thrift Shop Law, so I should probably restate something from several months ago.



This is an inviolate economic law. It is immutable. No matter how much we buff orbs, even if we tripled the droprate and doubled the chance for "top tier" orb effects... it would still be cheaper on average to trade for the thing than craft it yourself.

Why? It's not rocket science. If you can craft it for an average cost of X, then a price greater than or equal to X simply won't draw customers. If the seller doesn't charge less than X, it'll just sit in the stash. So sellers undercut, and charge less than X.

1. Things are always sold at or above cost, never below cost irl. Your entire argument is hilarious since it changes this fact conveniently for your case. You should at least know real economics before you try to apply them to a videogame
2. To further re-iterate the fact that poe is a videogame and not a real economy, see the post where Chris_GGG talks about how they tried the orb drop test (which was a terribly obvious non-study, but whatever)

But hey, keep on believing that GGG can't change the economy in their own videogame when they are God here. I mean, we can't just introduce BoP in this game, right?

TLDR: no offense but you and the others trying to talk about economics in this videogame have no clue what you're talking about

"

SL4Y3R a écrit :

You really need to stop comparing trading vs. Crafting/recipes.

i don't know who you are talking to, but i must have blew your mind.

i

1) never compared trading to crafting

2) i only ever compared crafting to crafting

3) i gave an easy example to show you how bullshit the system is

4) it's not hard to understand, but maybe you are more dense than i thought

5) ???

crafting is bullshit in this game. it's too random, and not consistent enough.

i know you enjoy the shit crafting system Slayer, and I know you think orbs should be complete and utter useless fucking shit garbage, mainly used to buy/tweak unique items...

but not all of us feel this way.

some of us think that orbs should be useful beyond tweaking uniques.

I wonder while reading this threat.

Should a character be capable of reaching level 100 without having a 6-link?

Do note, a 6-link is a convenience in higher level maps. It does not constitute a
"finished build".

Because currently there is nothing preventing this from happening. Not even trading.

Obviously the chances are small i know.

It's just funny to think about this.

also i am not defending an "easier" method of gaining a 6-link, my point is that a gambling system could live happily side by side with a non-gambling craft system. People would have to make a choice then.

1) do i gamble

2) do i craft it

3) do i participate in the economy (this will still be cheaper then crafting/gambling but it might not yield the particular item your build requires)

At the end of the story, implementing #2 is a number balance game that is not for us to decide but for GGG. And it would have a relative small impact on the game, since a 6-link does not automatically present a "finished build" like some people in here seem to think.

A 6-link is a build "concept" enabler, in that it saves passive tree points or makes end-game skill combinations possible. Nothing more and nothing less.
And it is in fact a whole lot easier of obtaining a 6-link then obtaining a top-tier BiS rare item. (which is a good thing imo)

"

Veruski a écrit :

"

SL4Y3R a écrit :

You really need to stop comparing trading vs. Crafting/recipes.

i don't know who you are talking to, but i must have blew your mind.

i

1) never compared trading to crafting

2) i only ever compared crafting to crafting

3) i gave an easy example to show you how bullshit the system is

4) it's not hard to understand, but maybe you are more dense than i thought

5) ???

crafting is bullshit in this game. it's too random, and not consistent enough.

i know you enjoy the shit crafting system Slayer, and I know you think orbs should be complete and utter useless fucking shit garbage, mainly used to buy/tweak unique items...

but not all of us feel this way.

some of us think that orbs should be useful beyond tweaking uniques.

I wasn't talking to you, but thanks for the post.

"

SL4Y3R a écrit :

I wasn't talking to you, but thanks for the post.

But i was! well partially, my message was aimed at you and Scrotie.

Since you both seem to fear the day 6-links become more accessible, when in reality they are not the end-game at all.

And i am truly curious to where your fear comes from around this issue.

"

Boem a écrit :

"

SL4Y3R a écrit :

I wasn't talking to you, but thanks for the post.

But i was! well partially, my message was aimed at you and Scrotie.

Since you both seem to fear the day 6-links become more accessible, when in reality they are not the end-game at all.

And i am truly curious to where your fear comes from around this issue.

I'm actually in favor of a 6L recipe that costs say 1500 fusing. Scrotie is against it.