Feedback: RNG rerolling is not crafting, discuss

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

There are many on these forums who have deluded themselves into thinking that RNG is somehow a bad thing, the removal of which would somehow usher in the New Utopia. They do this by blanking out the wince-worthy horror which is RNG's alternative.

It's a matter of preference, some prefer to get a 5link in 5 fusings at some time and in 95 at some other, over your career you average out at 50 fusings anyway so it makes absolutely no difference in the long run. I like to have a goal, I would prefer to put fusings in my strongbox one by one until I gather those 50 and then I'd like the game to give me that 5link I rightfully earned. Thank you.

And no, I'm not really a squirrel in disguise.

You think the average is 50? You lucky dog, you. The real average is closer to 120, so even 95 is lucky. I somehow doubt you'd feel the same about your plan if you had to save up Fusings 150 at a time to get that 5L.

I didn't get my first Ambush 5L until I was over 400 Fusings in... which is pretty darn unlucky, but you won't hear me cursing RNG's name. I was pretty darn stoked when it happened. Later on, got my second 5L in only 11 Fusings, which was a really cool and startling surprise.

Orb use is far, far more interesting when every incremental action you take has a chance of success. I guess there is a little bit of different strokes for different folks here, but what little exists is easily disposable, because there have been lots of studies about the effects of randomness on fun. Scientific studies do not support your viewpoint.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

...because there have been lots of studies about the effects of randomness on fun. Scientific studies do not support your viewpoint.

Did those studies factor in unfun, which dwarfs the chance of success wrt Fusing usage?

Even if they did, this seems inappropriate -- roguelikes aren't the most popular type of game.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

You think the average is 50? You lucky dog, you. The real average is closer to 120, so even 95 is lucky. I didn't get my first Ambush 5L until I was over 400 Fusings in. I somehow doubt you'd feel the same about your plan if you had to save up Fusings 150 at a time to get that 5L.

Regardless, orb use is far, far more interesting when every incremental action you take has a chance of success. I guess there is a little bit of different strokes for different folks here, but what little exists is easily disposable, because there have been lots of studies about the effects of randomness on fun. Scientific studies do not support your viewpoint.

Yeah, I also heard Vegas is the Mecca for such scientific studies, eh? :)

About actual average, I don't have any solid evidence, but those from 6-linking thread average out at 50-60 for a 5 link in a 6 slot item, a bit higher for 5 slot item, I'm willing to allow for some subjectivity there. Also, I've heard claims based on comments of some GGG staff (but haven't seen them myself) that scraps can as much as double the chance.

Anyway, devs have the chance so they know the actual average, I'd be happy with any number they claim for it, as my luck has traditionally been pretty poopy in that matter. Of course, that wold have to be the actual average, any higher would be highway robbery. Gamblers still have their prospects of rolling it with less orbs and scraps to boost their chances, that's enough.

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raics a écrit :

some prefer to get a 5link in 5 fusings at some time and in 95 at some other, over your career you average out at 50 fusings anyway so it makes absolutely no difference in the long run.

sure, this is true if you are shooting for something easy to get like a 5L, something you may achieve dozens of times.

what about 6L? difficult off colors? etc?

most players won't attempt this multiple times.

doing even one big 6L or off-coloring attempt is a huge deal.

so what if you get unlucky during your first 6L, and it takes you 5k fuses and you still aren't holding a 6L, while some newbie scrub who barely knows how to play 6L's something in 5 tries?

is that fair? reasonable? cool? fun? entertaining?

it depends on who you ask. thank god they are making a more consistent way to get a 6L. this game needs less RNG, not more.

It should also be said that in the recent podcast w/ Chris he all but confirms that they are looking to make sockets and links more available. He also mentions not directly changing the existing odds (using the tired "it wouldn't be fair to those who have already 6-linked" type of argument he is generally fond of [like when there were discussions of nerfing Lioneye's Glare in OB]) -- meaning that whatever the alternative progression path is, it'll probably involve less variance than simple orb usage.

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What's the term for a slow, steady progression towards an inevitable yet time-consuming achievement? Oh, yeah, I remember now. Grinding.

There are many on these forums who have deluded themselves into thinking that RNG is a bad thing, the removal of which would somehow usher in the New Utopia. They do this by blanking out the wince-worthy horror which is RNG's alternative.

What is the problem with a guaranteed solution next to the gambling option that already exist's, really i wonder. Why could they not live happily next to one another.

(obviously by a number that's higher then the average random attempt. This should be obvious)

You seem to decide for the people i spoke about what is fun for them. Wtf is wrong with that.

Ever considered for some people the "fun" in this game comes from making a theory-craft. And seeing it succeed, to then either improve on it or roll another one. So yeah i understand my mates when they talk about fusing horror shit and the incapability to bypass RNG in order to work towards there final theory-craft.

Are you worried people lack the creativity to keep on making builds to please themselves?

Or are the worries more fundamental in that the system GGG provides is not deep enough to warrant many builds?

Honestly i am curious, because even when given a 6-link recipe and achieving it on many of my builds, my progression towards my final theory-crafts would still not be complete. Not even close.

Maybe when i reach around lvl 95+- with all of them. And even then, new idea's pop up into my mind every time i play.(not meta-game viable, at least not all of them, but who the fuck cares. . .)

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MortalKombat3 a écrit :

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SL4Y3R a écrit :

Lol. What? Jewelry, gloves, belt, and most weapons.

Unique slots are usually best in helms, and occasionally boots.

And shields (except ES), chests (except ES again), gloves (hello, Atziri's Acuity), some rings (Dream Fragments) and even weapons (Soul Taker, Voltaxis)....

Acuity only works for critical builds. Dream fragments is completely unnecessary. I'd rather have a higher dmg rare than soultaker. Same with voltaxis.

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ScrotieMcB a écrit :

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Boem a écrit :

They would be a lot more happy with a guaranteed high cost recipe, even if it doubled the cost compared to average spending. Simply because they could work towards it and feel a sense of progression in doing so, even at a slow and steady pace.

What's the term for a slow, steady progression towards an inevitable yet time-consuming achievement? Oh, yeah, I remember now. Grinding.

There are many on these forums who have deluded themselves into thinking that RNG is a bad thing, the removal of which would somehow usher in the New Utopia. They do this by blanking out the wince-worthy horror which is RNG's alternative.

Good or bad isn't really the discussion here. The discussion is that GGG advertises crafting (or did) and still to this day POE crafting is simply RNG rerolling.

If you wanted my opinion on whether I think it's good or bad, I think it's a fucking joke that anyone should have to spend 1500 fusings to get a 6L. Do you know how long it takes to farm that much currency? Don't any of these fuckin people have jobs? I'd like to see my character to completion without having to be jobless, to say nothing about being able to have OTHER CHARACTERS/BUILDS. It's pretty damn obvious to me who the people are who actually play the game and who the people are that RMT'd or botted for their currency, because you don't have a job and have a 6L without RMT or botting unless you happened to get a 6L drop, the odds of which are worse than winning the fuckin lottery.

However, as I said, that isn't what the OP was about. The OP was about the fact that none of the currency in this game crafts anything, it just rolls stuff. Only the vendor recipes actually "craft" anything at all, and they set such a low baseline that you are literally able to buy your way (via trading) into gear that is exponentially better with just about nothing currency-wise at all. In any league of your choosing.

You really need to stop comparing trading vs. Crafting/recipes.

Trading will ALWAYS* be better. There's nothing wrong with that concept. The degree to which its better is one thing, but it will and should be better.

* Unless you're making an item that doesn't exist.

P.S. whomever thinks 1k fusings is a lot. That's around one month of grinding of just alts, jewelers, 6S, and fusings. If you play around 3 hours/day avg. Maybe 4.