MANA LEECH IS RUINED

"

tikitaki a écrit :

"If you want to use mana, you have to take all these nodes, because mana leech is not good enough."

That's bad.

Well I don't think that mana leech should just be able to solve all the mana problems just like that =).
It used to do it, but maybe it wasn't exactly how it was intended to work.
Using both can still lead you to a minor node investment, but let's wait a little bit to see if GGG does something for the most impacted build ... or not.

Obviously, with the way it works atm, it will be globally less efficient than just using mana leech ( at least for the builds that were relying on the gem of course ).

"

Fruz a écrit :

Well I don't think that mana leech should just be able to solve all the mana problems just like that

I have no idea what you mean by this statement.

It's a general tool that, when used properly, can fix a problem.

Life Leech is no different. When used properly, with a lot of life, and solid damage, it works and fixes the problem of "life running out."

You seem to be implying that I'm suggesting that if you put mana leech in your socket, it should 100% freely support every spell in the game, "just like that."

Nowhere did I say this. Please stop inventing shit. Thanks.

You don't see tons of people using the solution of stacking huge life regen to fix the problem, because that has a different purpose kind of like stacking a bunch of mana regen has a different purpose.

For instance: having a ton of life regen could allow you to run blood rage - but you rarely see people using life regen instead of life leech. Not efficient.

Honestly, in a current meta where there are builds that can faceroll any content in the entire game with ease, it will never cease to shock me that people irrationally defend minor things like mana leech rate under the guise that it's "too good."

Push, push, push that agenda....and I'm not really sure just what it is.


Taking 7+ nodes, and stacking +%mana regen and +mana on gear, to achieve obscene levels base mana and regen is both an offensive and defensive build choice. Since you can't cast and move at the same time, you can achieve enough regen to spam cast skills while running high level AA and potentially taking advantage of MoM without even glancing at the EB keystone and not needing ANY support gems for resource management. It is a viable build decision that nets the player some (ZOMG!) build diversity.

This path does not seem to be preferred by some in this thread. That does not invalidate it as a quality build choice. Again, I'll let you know how I find mana management once I get to 5L on my Shadow's Reave (again, elemental aura damage, not focusing on physical damage), since I plan on only using Mind Drinker for leech. Well, Mind Drinker and a metric crapton of regen (I think I'm looking at something like +100% from the tree from 6 nodes that are either on the way or not out of the way, will optimize gear for it as well). I am sure that if I wanted to build differently I would not be taking regen, would use mana leech or BM support, and put those points into other defensive passives. Either way, I am sure that the build will be solid, with very little in the way of resource issue outside of maps with mods that are intended to stress resource management.

EDIT to avoid cross-posting too badly:
@Tiki - Stop trying to make mana into life. They are different. You seem to ignore that the life route also requires investment of passives and gear, investments that are made in other areas by the mana route, typically achieving very similar results. If you, personally, are having an issue with mana as a resource, and think that the life route is better, then take it. Other players are not having the same experience and no amount of argument on your part is going to change that. It doesn't make either part "right" nor "wrong", just different.

"

Sinnesteuer a écrit :

Push, push, push that agenda....and I'm not really sure just what it is.

The improvement of PoE.

Horrifying.

"

Sinnesteuer a écrit :

Taking 7+ nodes, and stacking +%mana regen and +mana on gear, to achieve obscene levels base mana and regen is both an offensive and defensive build choice.

Yup. It is a build choice. However, it shouldn't be a choice people feel forced to take just to sustain their mana for their attacks/spells.

"

Sinnesteuer a écrit :

Again, I'll let you know how I find mana management once I get to 5L on my Shadow's Reave (again, elemental aura damage, not focusing on physical damage), since I plan on only using Mind Drinker for leech. Well, Mind Drinker and a metric crapton of regen

Mind drinker? That only works with physical attack damage, which might be why you are so out of touch with everybody in this thread.

The original example is a spellcaster, and the majority of spells do elemental damage. There is virtually no way to get "elemental leech" without using one of the following:

A) Blood Magic + LL
B) Mana Leech Gem
C) Corrupted items with ~1%? Ele leech.

We have all been in agreement, probably since page 1, that physical damage attackers have a much easier time with mana than spellcasters, given that it's much easier to scale up the leech % (physical mana/life leech can be found as affixes on many gear slots).

"

tikitaki a écrit :

Ad Hominem

Pretty sure I have mentioned my 5L Incinerator from Domination that never dipped mana below the reservation line while running 100% uptime level appropriate AA and perma-spamming my spell without any mana leech of any kind. I used the mana leech gem, initially, but it was sub-optimal to regen for my build. That's right, regen was OPTIMAL as it provided better sustain, better ability to run AA, and opened up a gem slot for a damage support.

You seem to be arguing that, for the hard caster, Mana Leech support ONLY, with ZERO OTHER INVESTMENT OF ANY KIND, should be able to manage the resource needs of 5/4L+Mana Leech. If that is the case, then I challenge you to provide me with an example of any build that can meet the same requirements, even if we limit the challenge to "uses one support to manage resources" to allow you to work in BM support or LL support.

To turn it around, why wouldn't a hard caster take advantage of mana regen and the advantages that it can provide? Unless we are talking about niche builds (Freezing Pulse Duelist with Avatar Of Fire or some such), then most caster builds are going to be in and around the areas of the tree that offer boosts to mana. Hell, the attribute associated with spells (INT) is a mana booster in and of itself. Why not take advantage of stuff that is right in front of you that synergizes well with other build characteristics?

"

Sinnesteuer a écrit :

"

tikitaki a écrit :

Ad Hominem

I did not personally attack you in that post.

"

Sinnesteuer a écrit :

You seem to be arguing that, for the hard caster, Mana Leech support ONLY, with ZERO OTHER INVESTMENT OF ANY KIND

No, I never made that argument.

Not once.

I did, however, make the argument that physical attack damage users have ways to scale up their leech amount without investing a lot of nodes in the passive tree.

An elemental caster using leech is not open to this option, because basically you're stuck with the gem alone. There are no gear affixes that help in this way.

Actually - come to think of it I can't even recall any nodes that help with mana leech amount, beyond just scaling up your damage. There is no equivalent of mind drinker for elemental damage.

Unless you think ~1% ele leech implicit corruptions should be the only way to scale it up, which is a pretty brutal suggestion.

So really: Even if you wanted to invest in scaling up your mana leech amount, there are very few ways to do so.

"

Sinnesteuer a écrit :

To turn it around, why wouldn't a hard caster take advantage of mana regen and the advantages that it can provide?

Why doesn't everybody simply use Searing Bond to level? It's certainly more effective than everything else. So by your logic, the balance of say, Cleave, while leveling, is irrelevant because there's another skill that works perfectly fine and you can just use that instead.

Mana regen definitely is great and people grab it as they can, but it's extremely expensive to stack and solves a problem a lot of people are not trying to solve (a constant mana drain - eg running AA). It also directs you along certain paths of the skill tree that you might not want to take.

@ Sinnesteuer : not to sound rude, but arguing with you Shadow's Reave is completely off topic.

Because Reave is an attack, and attacks cost pretty much nothing compared to spells.
And can use physical leech from passive/items (and you will leech, even a tiny amount because there are no pure elemental claws anyway).
Even if you 6L your reave with the most costly supports available, it will still be peanuts compared to the cost of a 6L spell.

Mana regen by itself can work for attacks, for spells if you want to go mana regen you also need to heavily invest in mana nodes.
In fact the only thing making easily (read : no big investisment) spells spammable in this game is clarity BUT it reserve a shitload of mana.

Leech is a form of regen, predicated on damage dealt, that should, if it does not already (and we have not seen anyone argue that it does not), gain from increases in regeneration amounts. This is true of both life and mana. It is, however, much easier to gain very high levels of mana regen than life regen. I actually see mana leech support gem + minor investments in regen as being wholly viable. (Note: I am basing my assumption that regen has an effect on leech recovery rate on the interaction of Clarity and +% increased mana regen, and am willing to accept I am mistaken. However, such a mistake would not invalidate my own experiences with the current leech mechanics, regardless of attack or spell based.)

We cannot take mana leech and put it in a vacuum when considering hard caster resource management. It has to be just one piece of the resource puzzle that helps to provide the diversity between attacks/spells and life/mana.

I find it disingenuous to argue that adapting a build to meet the new resource management requirements is, somehow, going to result in a less optimal build. Sure, there might be differences on paper, but I doubt they play out that differently in game.

Having taken another glance at the thread as a whole, it appears we have one group of people that wants to argue that mana leech is totally broken for highly supported hard caster builds. On the other hand we have players that suggest that the existence of other viable options and choices makes the issue less of a problem. Again, both are 100% correct, based on their approach to the issue in the first place.

"

tikitaki a écrit :

You seem to be implying that I'm suggesting that if you put mana leech in your socket, it should 100% freely support every spell in the game, "just like that."

You seem to think that the nerf was not justified, and it basically did freely support most of the spells in the game, without any other investment.
Worked even better with many physical builds and just mind drinker of course.

"

tikitaki a écrit :

"If you want to use mana, you have to take all these nodes, because mana leech is not good enough."

That's bad.

Agreed. Just to weigh in, seeing as this thread https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/814137 hasn't recieved much attention in a while,

I know this thread stemmed from a caster discussion, but, my character was a duellist. He attacked at lots of APS. I rejigged him post patch for 3 mana nodes, 6% mana steal and clarity with no other auras (though didn't keep that last one for long - instant death). He used a 4-link only and, with no problems pre-patch, can now kill about one and a half white bad guys before he has to run off and recharge/potion. That's not acceptible downtime, or a fun game. And that's not based off a sense of 'entitlement' either, that's a basic build that was budgeted for, worked fine, and ran a very reasonable 4-link only while being in no way over-powered.

Based on how quickly he wipes out I reckon it would take at least 8 nodes to give him a chance. I'm not going to tell you I couldn't reallocate a couple, but I really don't have 8 to spare.

He would work perfectly well if I just took blood magic (which most people do, for extra auras) but as I say, 4-link only doesn't leave much room for the gem. Choosing leech for keeping the slot or blood magic for extra auras was at least a choice. Making a fairly basic build non-viable until you have a 5-link and use a specific gem is not good. And having a quoted leech% but not actually getting that back, is also not good. Oh, and making character-ending changes with a few days notice is very, very bad.

I know people want to give GGG the benefit of the doubt seeing as they gave us this mostly excellent free game, but this is a feedback board, that they set up so we could tell them what they got right and wrong. And mana leech is well and truly broken now.