MANA LEECH IS RUINED

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Xendran a écrit :

This thread keeps getting better and better.

lel

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StinkFinger a écrit :

Everyone knows Mana Leech is shit now... The only people disagreeing are the same people who say this game doesn't desync.

Mana Leech still works just fine... on Flameblast.

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Nemmerle a écrit :

I dont personally think "totally ruined" is the right description, but I can understand the sentiment. 1.1 definitely made it harder without giving us many compensating options. This is worst for the very high-end builds which had finely-tuned gear that were marginal for mana - those builds experienced a big reduction in their playability and there's not a lot out there for those players to go search out to compensate. If we had, say a +0.5/mana per hit affix on gloves, at least they could go farm gear looking for the alternative mod. Right now there isnt much in the way of methods to adjust.

That's the problem with GGG's lack of professionalism about patches .... you don't know what can happen, and if it messes up the way you tuned your build through expensive gear ... you may just need to re-tune it and spend much currency doing so ://.

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Emphasy a écrit :

Definitely agree with number 1, although extensive testing would be required. Definitely no to number 2

Or add a flask prefix that does it instead of changing every single mana flask.

And I agree on the 20% leech cap for mana also.

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TohtoriKuolema a écrit :

Fireball is way too expensive spell, way way way too expensive. Especially compared to damage which seems lackluster compared to incinerate...considering when you build heavily to mana&regen you will not crit with fireball, ever. Critpassives just are totally out of question if you intend to survive even white monsters.

Now that leech is at a state that GGG probably approves more ( about mana here ), those kind of issues will be shown more easily and I hope that the balancing will be according to it.

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StinkFinger a écrit :

Everyone knows Mana Leech is shit now... The only people disagreeing are the same people who say this game doesn't desync.

I have yet to see someone seriously saying that the game does not desync on this forum ...

Don't be so arrogant, Fruz. You too, Scrotie.

@Solutions:
1) I agree with bumping the leech rate to 20%. Mana progresses and is overall available in smaller quantities than life. If this becomes problematic for the extreme values EB produces, then it can gain a 40% less leech rate modifier (which returns it right back to where it is now).

2) Most of all, I would like sources of "increased leech rate" beyond just the support gems. This is a modifier that belongs on items (for life, appended to the otherwise useless flat regen mods; for mana, I'm not entirely sure..) and seriously belongs on the tree.

3) Mind Drinker is keystone material. I'm fond of making it the mana version of VP. A near literal translation, perhaps with a smaller "less leech" penalty. "Cannot regenerate mana" is a much much more fitting drawback than for life, as mana regen is implicit to all builds whereas life regen is not. The name is even fitting for the theme of the benefit and drawback.

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Fruz a écrit :

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Nemmerle a écrit :

I dont personally think "totally ruined" is the right description, but I can understand the sentiment. 1.1 definitely made it harder without giving us many compensating options. This is worst for the very high-end builds which had finely-tuned gear that were marginal for mana - those builds experienced a big reduction in their playability and there's not a lot out there for those players to go search out to compensate. If we had, say a +0.5/mana per hit affix on gloves, at least they could go farm gear looking for the alternative mod. Right now there isnt much in the way of methods to adjust.

That's the problem with GGG's lack of professionalism about patches .... you don't know what can happen, and if it messes up the way you tuned your build through expensive gear ... you may just need to re-tune it and spend much currency doing so ://.

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Emphasy a écrit :

Definitely agree with number 1, although extensive testing would be required. Definitely no to number 2

Or add a flask prefix that does it instead of changing every single mana flask.

And I agree on the 20% leech cap for mana also.

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TohtoriKuolema a écrit :

Fireball is way too expensive spell, way way way too expensive. Especially compared to damage which seems lackluster compared to incinerate...considering when you build heavily to mana&regen you will not crit with fireball, ever. Critpassives just are totally out of question if you intend to survive even white monsters.

Now that leech is at a state that GGG probably approves more ( about mana here ), those kind of issues will be shown more easily and I hope that the balancing will be according to it.

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StinkFinger a écrit :

Everyone knows Mana Leech is shit now... The only people disagreeing are the same people who say this game doesn't desync.

I have yet to see someone seriously saying that the game does not desync on this forum ...

No no no...totally ruined IS THE WORD. We should not all be bent over backward in an economy that is already up shiz creek because they want to play with their patches. WTF IS GOING ON! A dozen patches this month. It's ridiculous. They make Windows updates seem tame for the errors and changes made by comparison.

And to say "finely tuned" is a gross understand. My gear is so specific, that if I lose ONE ONE ONE ONE ONE strength or ONE ONE ONE ONE dex, I cannot wear ANY of my gear. This is hardcare playing because the game is 10x harder than hell difficulty on Diablo 2!

Why the hell is this game so stinking hard? WHY? If it wasn't so hard, then we wouldn't have to scrape the ground for every last mana, every last chaos orb and every last stat TOO SURVIVE!!!

AFTER 6 MONTHS OF TEDIOUS LEVELING, BUYING AND SELLIGN WITH JERKS, GUESS WHAT...ALL GONE IN ONE PATCH. Gone!

No, this is wholly unacceptable. Witches aren't just hard to play, they are TEDIOUS to play when the gear and statting comes around to bite us in the butt.

I HATE YOU GGG
I HOPE YOU ALL ROT

[Post Edited by Support]

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Umbra_the_Wolf a écrit :

[...]

And you keep insulting GGG ..... :/


No, Witch isn't a tedious class to play, it's basically the class that has the most powerful mana nodes in its starting area if you need it. So drop your mana leech and put a superior reduced mana gem instead if you need, take some mana nodes and you should be able to cast your spell again.


This game has been design to be hardcore, where finding gear is not meant to be easy.

If you loose on str or one dext, just put an extra point in the tree until you fix it.

The way that GGG is patching/applying modifications to the game kinda sucks, but we have to deal with it. It's just a game, besides there had been much more brutal changes than this one ( = auras on release ) in the past. Just get some cheap ( couple of chaos worth, the kind of rare that you could be keeping ) gear to fix your char until you find better.

Again, I posit the argument that the rate of leech for mana does not need to be adjusted, as we have plenty of ways to augment that through the tree and gear in the way of increased mana regen. IMO, Life Leech has a higher rate due to the much more limited life regen via tree/gear/supports.

I have my Shadow concept at lvl 32 now. Mind Drinker + Mental Acuity + Mana Geyser are all I currently need to fully power Reave+WED+Multi with only 54 free mana after Wrath + Discipline + Reduced mana (with Charisma and Influence notables, needed/wanted for the 4 or 5 auras I will be running end-game).

I would suggest that those builds that are hitting for smaller, more frequent hits (as will be the case with my Shadow) may want to see what increasing their mana regen rate does for their sustain. While Fireball may not fit the bill of "smaller, more frequent" it may still benefit. Alternatively, Fireballers could look into moving from LMP and into something like Slower Projectiles + Conc Effect + Ele Prolif on a 4L for Ignite killing.

I just can't believe that players have really explored all of the avenues available in order to optimize under the new rules. It is still very new.

Note: If I am mistaken, and +% increased mana regen does not effect the leech return rate, then I will happily stand corrected. However, I can't guarantee that I will change my view on the usefulness of high regen in order to maintain resource.

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

Note: If I am mistaken, and +% increased mana regen does not effect the leech return rate, then I will happily stand corrected. However, I can't guarantee that I will change my view on the usefulness of high regen in order to maintain resource.

Interesting, I actually never considered leeching as being a regeneration strictly ( I mean in term of a game "property" ) ....
I honestly don't think it works like that when I think about it, but I'm not sure anymore now ^^".

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CanHasPants a écrit :

3) Mind Drinker is keystone material. I'm fond of making it the mana version of VP. A near literal translation, perhaps with a smaller "less leech" penalty. "Cannot regenerate mana" is a much much more fitting drawback than for life, as mana regen is implicit to all builds whereas life regen is not. The name is even fitting for the theme of the benefit and drawback.

I would prefer adding a VP equivalent for, idk exactly where this would fit the best in the tree, but something like this. It would need a second pact name :P.

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Sinnesteuer a écrit :

Again, I posit the argument that the rate of leech for mana does not need to be adjusted, as we have plenty of ways to augment that through the tree and gear in the way of increased mana regen. IMO, Life Leech has a higher rate due to the much more limited life regen via tree/gear/supports.

I disagree with this. Short of a completely reinvented mana system that doesn't suck (sorry GGG ;D), the next best thing is to provide as much diversity as possible. This means building for leech rate, building for mana gained on kill, building for mana regen, building for reduced mana, or building for some combination thereof.

A lot of these need some new convention to make them more appealing. For example: adding a small amount of mana gained on hit to the end of mana gained on kill cluster, to lend a slight bit of sustainability missing for builds that would want to use MGoK. This combined with a small amount of mana regen would allow builds to want to choose MGoK, rather than mostly just ignore it (it is a very good mechanic, it just lacks sustainability).

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CanHasPants a écrit :

A lot of these need some new convention to make them more appealing. For example: adding a small amount of mana gained on hit to the end of mana gained on kill cluster, to lend a slight bit of sustainability missing for builds that would want to use MGoK. This combined with a small amount of mana regen would allow builds to want to choose MGoK, rather than mostly just ignore it (it is a very good mechanic, it just lacks sustainability).

To be honest, I think that the "Soul siphon" notable is highly underrated, and is very good for fast attacking mana based builds.
I wish it gave "10 mana on kill" plus "5 mana on hit" instead of just "15 mana on kill" though.

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Fruz a écrit :

To be honest, I think that the "Soul siphon" notable is highly underrated, and is very good for fast attacking mana based builds.
I wish it gave "10 mana on kill" plus "5 mana on hit" instead of just "15 mana on kill" though.

That's a good point, Fruz. With three passive points invested you get +25 mana per kill. If your attack/spell kills four mobs, that's 100 mana returned, instantly, without an ounce of leech. For the heavy-hitting AoE skills, the rate of return could be huge.