Please bring map boss hp down

This whole issue seems fairly simple to me. PoE is about efficiency and getting the best ratio of reward per time investment. That has been how ARPGs have worked since they were called hack 'n slash games, and that's how PoE works once you hit maps if you have any desire to be remotely serious about mapping.

Buffing the HP of map bosses across the atlas, but abstaining from any other changes, means the ratio of reward per time investment is worse off. A good mapping session should be measured in dozens of maps. Higher HP pools adds an extra 10 - 30 seconds (assuming you don't burn any portals), and you better believe that adds up over the course of a session.

Now I'm not saying people should feel bad for wanting to kill every map boss. People should have fun however they want, but quite a few people do enjoy min-maxing and getting the most out of their play sessions; those people view the HP buff as a pretty obnoxious buff to their startup time for content they were most likely going to skip in the first place after the required atlas clear.

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Fruz a écrit :

It's precisely because the maps that you can easily run in a line are easily sustainable that they provide the best xp/hour ...

No, it's not, this is where you're flat-out wrong.

Take ANY MAP YOU WANT, and buy up a stack of 'em. Run them in a row, and compare your EXP/hr compared to what you get with a fast-clearing build on Shaped Strand. There's never any contest.

Like, seriously, I'm calling it right now. If you want to claim anything but, it's on you to prove you can beat Shaped Strand's EXP/hr with, say, any of the normal T15s: Dark Forest, Overgrown Ruin, Colosseum, Abyss, or Core. Any kind of pre-crafting is allowed. You CAN'T beat just alting Shaped Strand for packsize.

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Fruz a écrit :

And if you only fight Minotaur with a right click facetanking (probably cheezy) build, well good for you.

It's sorta-cheesy, but definitely not meta. (Character in question is Moath, if you're curious, and I'm 100% serious about "just hold right-click." Same deal applies to Chimera himself, who can't even scratch him)

Given that the goal in aRPGs is to get good gear, one can't just consider only how the game plays when one is woefully undergeared or with a bad build.

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Fruz a écrit :

Some of those xp suggestions are not that bad, but boss should not provide as far as a proportional time investment imho, they already have a 20% map slot and quite a bit of rarity or qty, plus some are not even alone giving this (only one extra map slot though ).

Problem with that is:

• The map drop rate might not even be 20% (it's been closer to maybe 1/6 for me, going off of the last 1,000 or so maps I've run) and it's often still a garbage white map.
  
  
• Increased quantity and rarity means jack all in today's meta. GG equipment isn't looted, it's crafted. Since 2.0 came out, I've had just a handful of items drop where, after some clever master crafting, I could get an exalt or more from it. (most was 10 exa for a wand) That's a drop in the bucket compared to currency, unique, divination card, etc. drops, where bosses aren't appreciably higher than normal enemies.
  
  

Basically, run maps, and compare how often your loot filter dings for you on a boss, compared to sometime during the map itself. Bosses just plain don't give anything worth the time.

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Fruz a écrit :

Completely against removing the exp penalty though, that's a different debate too there.

Well, part of it would be to redo how the ladder works; leveling needs to be accommodating to people who AREN'T pro streamers.

Right now, the game has a serious gap in who it caters to; it's mostly designed around a few dozen pro streamers, (the kind who, as I predicted, hit 100 around 120 hours into the league) and then, secondarily, trying to be gentle enough for the "Scrub tier" long enough for them to get bored and stop advancing in the game.

For the more intensive/knowledgeable (skill hasn't been a thing in PoE for a few years) players, but who might have NON-STREAMING jobs, the game gets pretty hostile, in part because they start entering territory where GGG has rather arbitrarily padded the game

But good to know you're against removing the one thing that currently makes T15s pointless. Again, the added threat and complexity was meant to balance out a 4-level difference in EXP over T11s, but instead it's less than 1.5.

So, it's clear that GGG can't make a "one-size-fits-all" method: pro streamers STILL get to 100 in five days, while other serious players just get bored and give up with the sluggish EXP/hr pace.

The easy solution, to avoid going into TOO MUCH detail here, would be to have a TempLeague exclusive difference, to include "uncapped" levels beyond 100: the new levels would NOT award life, mana, or passive points, and do nothing but simply increment the player's level. (which would affect EXP penalties...) Such a shift would keep the ladder "alive" through all 90 days of a league, rather than, at the dawn of day 6, HC Harbinger's top 3 are already permanently set in stone, with the remaining 84+ days being meaningless.

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Fruz a écrit :

And of course it's better to party, if there was no incentive to partying then people would not play together, and it's not what GGG wants imho.

There's a difference between "reward for partying," and "punishment for going solo." Right now, because of the meta, it's so VERY HEAVILY leaned towards the latter.

Yes, the game supposedly "Balances" itself by giving a 60% increase in eHP (Stacking additively) per extra player past the first. But that means a 6-man still has, on raw DPS, over 50% more improvement than the monster eHP. And then to say nothing of the dynamics of party play, where multiple players allows for more auras, and eliminating a lot of the need for defensive maneuvering that solo players must master... It means that each player's real-world damage output in a group will almost always exceed what their hideout tooltip claims, versus, when solo, their practical actual damage output is a fraction of their tooltip.

So yes, that part needs to be nerfed. And after all, people like playing in parties in ANY game because it's FUN.

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Boem a écrit :

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allbusiness a écrit :

HC is sketchy as fuck with the new boss HP.

Isn't that the whole point of hc though?

on-topic, i think the boss hp is fine and where still early in the league so the down-times will only increase with better gear becoming available and people coming up with new strats and solutions.

Though, i do think the loot could be increased a bit in yellow/red maps where that hp tuning really starts to kick in and where every additional modifier on a map becomes increasingly suicidal.

Then again, i reckon GGG can't really do much when people are using supports to boost their damage/defense into the stratosphere.

Can't really expect them to balance difficulty vs reward based on the 80% masses and let the top just reel it all in, they do that enough already.

Peace,

-Boem-

That would just encourage people to skip more bosses in HC, which would be the exact opposite behavior you want to encourage. There were bosses that were sort of rippy, but if you could DPS them down fast enough it wasn't such a problem.


People still risk fighting Shaper/Guardians/Uber Izaro/Uber Atziri in HC because there is a good chance of a significant reward. People are basically already skipping bosses in HC at the moment unless you are running full DPS with support.

This boss loot is so good I can't wait to do this in HC mhm.

If they gave more weight to valued currency in boss loot tables, that might a start to getting people to do them more.

LOL this thread is hilarious. OMG bosses take like only twice as before tops.

Real issue is you're not used to having to build in defenses or smart flask management. Because you you took them out so fast before you could just spam flasks and burn them down before they burnt you. Not anymore. Takes defense, smart movement, and good flask managemant - in other words skill - to take out boss before death.

This patch is perfect. Working as intended.

Oh and im still on a 1 alc 3L doing lvl 10s at 80.

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Aim_Deep a écrit :

LOL this thread is hilarious. OMG bosses take like only twice as before tops.

Real issue is you're not used to having to build in defenses or smart flask management. Because you you took them out so fast before you could just spam flasks and burn them down before they burnt you. Not anymore. Takes defense, smart movement, and good flask managemant - in other words skill - to take out boss before death.

This patch is perfect. Working as intended.

Oh and im still on a 1 alc 3L doing lvl 10s at 80.

No, this patch literally does nothing but force people to play stupid builds that can sustain. I.E. Vaal Pact, or mass regen like RF. There are a few other builds that don't have 'sustain' in the sense that they don't spam very much such as Summoners, but the fact that you are forcing anyone to play like that is silly. Current 3.0 patch has crushed build diversity to the point where the game isn't really fun.

And before anyone says Steel was playing Deadeye KB, his build is not HC viable unless you have two supports with you. Regular KB deadeye would basically instantly die as soon as a stiff breeze touched them.

+1 just had a T4 boss drop 3 yellows and the rest was utter junk that was filtered out on regular so not even running a strict filter yet. Only done up to T5 and while the bosses are alright "so far" in terms of killing them takes a little longer than I am used too but they hit harder now I believe cause getting one shotted just cause I stopped for a second to pop a vaal lightning trap on a T3 boss is a joke.

Not the best geared either running 4k life atm since mid tier gear is still costing a ridiculous amount of chaos, 60c for belly *sighs* but anyway right now im just killing each boss once for atlas then skip not worth the hassle when its always been trash dropping the loot and currency and most of my exalts been from chests and objects.

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ACGIFT a écrit :

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Fruz a écrit :

It's precisely because the maps that you can easily run in a line are easily sustainable that they provide the best xp/hour ...

No, it's not, this is where you're flat-out wrong.

Take ANY MAP YOU WANT, and buy up a stack of 'em. Run them in a row, and compare your EXP/hr compared to what you get with a fast-clearing build on Shaped Strand. There's never any contest.

Like, seriously, I'm calling it right now. If you want to claim anything but, it's on you to prove you can beat Shaped Strand's EXP/hr with, say, any of the normal T15s: Dark Forest, Overgrown Ruin, Colosseum, Abyss, or Core. Any kind of pre-crafting is allowed. You CAN'T beat just alting Shaped Strand for packsize.

I never said that I could beat shaped strand, I am merely saying that shaped strand being sustainable without much troubles is a big thing in the xp/h efficiency race.

If you buy a stack of not easily ( or just not at all ) sustainable maps, they will cost more, which mean that you will need to farm to buy them, and that farming will have a different xp/h, plus trading reduces that too.

Shaped strand is likely better density+layout wize, but having is easily sustainable is also a thing, that matters.
Is shaped Quay better than shaped strand xp wise ?
Could be, but can you chain and sustain it as easily ?
nah, you can't, otherwise I think that people would run those more ( the boss is also more risky I guess ).

If t16 was sustainable without killing the boss, given the level, would the xp/h be better ? Can't tell, but xp is not the point of those maps anyway.

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ACGIFT a écrit :

But good to know you're against removing the one thing that currently makes T15s pointless

It does not.
Guardian are scary, are they likely should be.
Personally, Minotaur has killed me couple of times ( because I am not playing a full armour builds -yours seem very fit for it-, and I didn't know well the pattern .... neither did I know that having in AOE on the boss would be so bad lol, for the first time of course ), but the others .... couple of time killed all of them, and that has all been deathless.
It not mean that Hydra does not scare me for example, which I think is good, partly because of the penalty.


I don't mind party being much easier, I basically never party, and I honestly don't care much about other partying, so having it a bit nerf ... why not, that won't change much to me.

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Emphasy a écrit :

Well the thing is, you don't have to change overall rewards. You could shift them. Remove drops from trash mobs add them to bosses.

Fair enough, that's a good point.

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Aim_Deep a écrit :

This patch is perfect. Working as intended.

I like how what you focus on is your own smug feeling and the chance to say "git gud," and blinding yourself to how much you're gimping yourself by bothering with map bosses.

Again, map bosses are, for the most part, trivial for pretty much every character I've made. (and barring one TS Raider I made years ago, I don't do stuff that resembles "meta")

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Fruz a écrit :

I never said that I could beat shaped strand, I am merely saying that shaped strand being sustainable without much troubles is a big thing in the xp/h efficiency race.

You actually did suggest that you could, mostly because you purported that the most important factor (if not only factor) in strong EXP/hr was "sustain," which makes me wonder exactly how many maps you've actually done since Atlas came out, since all you can seem to repeat is "sustain, sustain!"

That's why I challenged you to find any map that could get a higher EXP/hr, assuming you had a fixed stockpile of equal number. Take, say, a dozen Shaped Strand, and a dozen of any map of your choosing. Craft the latter however you want, but Shaped Strand is alted for packsize, rerolling Temp chains and relevant reflect.

That is what's called a scientific "control;" I'm REMOVING your vaunted "sustainability" from the picture,

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Fruz a écrit :

If you buy a stack of not easily ( or just not at all ) sustainable maps, they will cost more, which mean that you will need to farm to buy them, and that farming will have a different xp/h, plus trading reduces that too.

Shaped strand is likely better density+layout wize, but having is easily sustainable is also a thing, that matters.

Is shaped Quay better than shaped strand xp wise ?

TBH, sustain isn't much of an issue if you know what you're doing. Quay is actually pretty easy to sustain.

When people talk of EXP/hr, we're not measuring time spent trading, etc. And even in EXP mode, it's not that hard to pick up the few items ACTUALLY worth picking up, and if you know what you're doing and how to properly trade, you CAN use that alone to sustain a lot.

Unshaped T10 and T11s are so worthless that yeah, you CAN just rely on buying every map you ever run, and still sustain. Hell, I can sustain Shaped Strand while having all T11+T12 maps unlocked, just by buying them all; the cost of buying maps is so insignificant.

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Fruz a écrit :

It does not.
Guardian are scary, are they likely should be.

Um, Guardians are T16, not T15!

T15 maps were made pointless (beyond anything other than a potential source of Guardian maps if you fail to sustain them) when GGG nerfed the effective monster levels of higher-tier maps, starting in 2.0.4.

As it currently stands, a Tier 15 map may have monsters stated for level 82, but are granting EXP as if they're barely above level 77, which means that the level penalty to your EXP starts at level 86, and NOT 90, meaning it's much sharper at every level in the 90s.

Because of that, and the smaller difference to stuff like T11s, the difference in EXP gains between the two tiers is VERY marginal, and more than outweighed by how much slower it is to clear a T15.

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Fruz a écrit :

Fair enough, that's a good point.

That is basically what I was saying should be the case for maps. If you read what I'd say about EXP ratios, I indicated that white mobs should be dropped to "0.5," meaning I'd HALVED their EXP; magic would also get cut to a smaller degree. The cut EXP would be given to both rares, and especially the map boss. (and some possibly going to fuel OTHER encounters, like Master missions)

Overall EXP per map/per hour should remain about the same, but no longer disproportionately favor just taking out trash mobs and skipping less-trivial content. Ideally, it should be slightly BETTER, to, y'know, reward players for trying the content that doesn't just require a random click in the pack's general direction.

The idea would be to REWARD players who develop a build suited for all types of content, rather than just focusing on max-clear against trash mobs, and skipping the boss. As right now, THAT is exactly what both hits level 100 quickest, and get the fastest loot.