Lets talk armor (the stat)

"

Snorkle_uk a écrit :

In the life vs es thread going on this forum we took a look at what happens when you get hit by a lot of attacks like that without time to react, we took them as each dealing 3k physical damage + 3k elemental damage from a 100% extra as ele map mod and a 9k life kaoms build survived 3 hits, a 16k es build survived 6 hits, a ar+ev 2h build survived 12 hits, a lightning coil evasion build survived 12 hits, a 1h+shield ar+ev build survived 20 hits and an aegis gladiator was immortal essentially.

So when etup kills 9 porcs and gets hit by 9 projectile attacks at the same time, then in the context of saying you need life pool to protect against 1 shots that get past your defense it makes a massive difference. When saying something like ar+ev cant work because of 1 shots that you need a big life pool against, and then showing an example where an ar+ev character can survive 4x to 6x as much damage as a 9k life kaoms build, its a very important distinction to make.

And then you forget, that armour protects only from physical hits. Fire, cold, lightning and chaos damage bypasses it. So you are 2 times better protected VS 20-25% of insta-gibs, but isnt protected VS remaining 75-80% at all.
And then you forget, that evasion protects only from attacks. Spells and non-classified abilities bypass it, so you are 2 times better protected VS 33-50% of insta-gibs, but arent protected VS remaining 50-67% at all.

Block and dodge are much better than evasion and armour for that case. They work VS both spells and attacks. And ES build is just as good at stacking block as life buuild is.

＾
And then you forget, that even with 3 added elemental mods, the physical part of the damage from attacks is bigger than the elemental one, and that even though forum warriors will tell you "Duh, things that kill at endgame are spells mostly !", that just isn't the case.
=> Insta gibs are not mostly coming from spells.

And dodge does not work against spells, spell dodge does however but that is another stat, that you cannot get from dodge.

"

Snorkle_uk a écrit :

"

allbusiness a écrit :

"

Snorkle_uk a écrit :

I dunno, I think the 1 shot thing basically doesnt exist either. Not counting "lol I got 4k life magic find derpcopter" idiot softcore builds I sometimes play, just talking about proper characters that are designed to survive, in the last 2 years Ive been 1 shot three times. Were talking 5k+ hours played, 3 times Ive been killed in a single hit and 2 of those were vol blood.

This isnt being dickish or prodding people into a trap or whatever, honest serious question, people who feel like theres a lot of 1 shots, what sort of stuff is 1 shotting you? Am I just getting lucky?

Your builds don't kill fast enough for Volatile to be a big enough problem, Volatiles become a much bigger problem when you're clearing so fast you don't even have time to read mobs, i.e. in Breaches. And believe me, that's not really a stars align scenario either.

lol?


my builds dont clear fast enough for vol to be a problem? What are you even talking about? What experience do you have of my builds and how I play maps?

"

I think when people talk about one shots they mean they get bursted down so quickly they literally cannot react. There's almost no difference there other than semantics at that point

no, theres a big difference.

Astarte911 linked an etup death earlier which is him dying to many projectile attacks that are either physical or physical elemental hybird (dont know map mods), and that is supposed to be a 1 shot. Its not a 1 shot, its an instant burst of maybe 9 hits landing together.

In the life vs es thread going on this forum we took a look at what happens when you get hit by a lot of attacks like that without time to react, we took them as each dealing 3k physical damage + 3k elemental damage from a 100% extra as ele map mod and a 9k life kaoms build survived 3 hits, a 16k es build survived 6 hits, a ar+ev 2h build survived 12 hits, a lightning coil evasion build survived 12 hits, a 1h+shield ar+ev build survived 20 hits and an aegis gladiator was immortal essentially.

So when etup kills 9 porcs and gets hit by 9 projectile attacks at the same time, then in the context of saying you need life pool to protect against 1 shots that get past your defense it makes a massive difference. When saying something like ar+ev cant work because of 1 shots that you need a big life pool against, and then showing an example where an ar+ev character can survive 4x to 6x as much damage as a 9k life kaoms build, its a very important distinction to make.

You play eq or cyclone, neither which are tier 1 clear speed builds. Volatiles become huge problems in breaches.

"

MortalKombat3 a écrit :

"

Snorkle_uk a écrit :

In the life vs es thread going on this forum we took a look at what happens when you get hit by a lot of attacks like that without time to react, we took them as each dealing 3k physical damage + 3k elemental damage from a 100% extra as ele map mod and a 9k life kaoms build survived 3 hits, a 16k es build survived 6 hits, a ar+ev 2h build survived 12 hits, a lightning coil evasion build survived 12 hits, a 1h+shield ar+ev build survived 20 hits and an aegis gladiator was immortal essentially.

So when etup kills 9 porcs and gets hit by 9 projectile attacks at the same time, then in the context of saying you need life pool to protect against 1 shots that get past your defense it makes a massive difference. When saying something like ar+ev cant work because of 1 shots that you need a big life pool against, and then showing an example where an ar+ev character can survive 4x to 6x as much damage as a 9k life kaoms build, its a very important distinction to make.

And then you forget, that armour protects only from physical hits. Fire, cold, lightning and chaos damage bypasses it. So you are 2 times better protected VS 20-25% of insta-gibs, but isnt protected VS remaining 75-80% at all.
And then you forget, that evasion protects only from attacks. Spells and non-classified abilities bypass it, so you are 2 times better protected VS 33-50% of insta-gibs, but arent protected VS remaining 50-67% at all.

Block and dodge are much better than evasion and armour for that case. They work VS both spells and attacks. And ES build is just as good at stacking block as life buuild is.

Physical damage does not make up 1/4 to 1/5 of incoming damage, it may be 1 of the 5 damage types but thats not the same thing, these %s you quote are nonsense. What I asked is what is 1 shotting ppl, I dont forget any of these mechanics, that has nothing to do with the question.

1 shots are not bursts, bursts can be mitigated by chance to avoid, were talking needing life pool against legit 1 shots, what are people getting 1 hit by?

In my experience vol blood twice and molten shell from magnus exile. Those are the only 3 legit 1 shots Ive come across in years. A 5 essence ghosted rare I can see being ridiculous, it didnt actually 1 shot him and I dont know what actually hit him, but for sure thats got potential for an extreme encounter. I think you can legitamtely say theres potential for a 1 shot by some rares with 5 essences and a ghost on them.

I dont think the weaver 1 shots a properly defended character, Ive played against that boss many times and its never even come close to 1 shotting me on a proper character. Porcs arnt 1 shotters, thats an attack burst, theres a lot of potentially dangerous attack bursts in the game, wayyyy more than legit 1 shots. I would argue attack bursts are by far the most common potentially lethal situation. My experience is that spell bursts are very rare and that legit 1 shots are insanely rare. But that may not be everyones experience, thats why Im asking the question, Im not trying to bait people into an argument or laugh at them or sell this and that point, Im actually interested.

"

allbusiness a écrit :

You play eq or cyclone, neither which are tier 1 clear speed builds. Volatiles become huge problems in breaches.

heres the current characters I have equipped and play

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1234566


since when have I downplayed how bs volatiles are? Ive been more against volatiles and preached harder for them to be changed than I think anyone else on the entire forum.





I think I might have played a bit in breach league.

"

Fruz a écrit :

＾
And then you forget, that even with 3 added elemental mods, the physical part of the damage from attacks is bigger than the elemental one, and that even though forum warriors will tell you "Duh, things that kill at endgame are spells mostly !", that just isn't the case.
=> Insta gibs are not mostly coming from spells.

There are many spells/abilities that dont inflict physical damage at all. And even those that do, with -max res mod and added elemental damage will have elemental part dealing much higher damage than physical.

"

Fruz a écrit :

And dodge does not work against spells, spell dodge does however but that is another stat, that you cannot get from dodge.

Obvoisuly i meant spelldodge as well. For spell block, you also need some investments, though it's usually much easier to obtain than spell dodge. And here we come to another weak side of evasion/acro builds - although they can cap dodge relatively easily, spells dodge is still quite hard to cap out for them. And though block builds need more investments for block cap, they can easily get spell block as well. But block is available for ES characters, and considering ES chars have higher HP pools and spend less points for them, they have clearly an edge when going block. Should i even mention, that Necromancer can trivialize capping block/spellblock with Bone Offering spam?

"

MortalKombat3 a écrit :

"

Fruz a écrit :

＾
And then you forget, that even with 3 added elemental mods, the physical part of the damage from attacks is bigger than the elemental one, and that even though forum warriors will tell you "Duh, things that kill at endgame are spells mostly !", that just isn't the case.
=> Insta gibs are not mostly coming from spells.

There are many spells/abilities that dont inflict physical damage at all. And even those that do, with -max res mod and added elemental damage will have elemental part dealing much higher damage than physical.

That's the problem here, you are trying to spread blatantly false assertions like this one.

As I pointed out earlier, with 3 added elemental mods, that does not even reach the physical part of a spell, and triple added elemental + minus max ?
Even if we forget for a second that it almost never happens, it would basically make the elemental part as big as the physical one.
(25%*3*1.3 = 97.5)

Basic math here, but more important, I'm not speaking purely from theory and forum reading.

And spell dodge is hard to get without acrobatics, only few items allow it, boots and quartz flasks, basically.

"

Fruz a écrit :

As I pointed out earlier, with 3 added elemental mods, that does not even reach the physical part of a spell, and triple added elemental + minus max ?
Even if we forget for a second that it almost never happens, it would basically make the elemental part as big as the physical one.
(25%*3*1.3 = 97.5)

Dont forget, that some mobs have innate extra elemental damage in addition to physical, blue/yellow mobs can receive extra elemental damage from mods, etc. Never though about that?

"

MortalKombat3 a écrit :

Dont forget, that some mobs have innate extra elemental damage in addition to physical, blue/yellow mobs can receive extra elemental damage from mods, etc. Never though about that?

-> Stars align scenario, as stated many times before here.
You need 4 elemental mods without minus max to reach as much elemental dmg as physical (without accounting for res decaps).

Very far from "much higher damage", even in a "stars-align" scenario, which is already is.

"

Fruz a écrit :

"

MortalKombat3 a écrit :

Dont forget, that some mobs have innate extra elemental damage in addition to physical, blue/yellow mobs can receive extra elemental damage from mods, etc. Never though about that?

-> Stars align scenario, as stated many times before here.
You need 4 elemental mods without minus max to reach as much elemental dmg as physical (without accounting for res decaps).

Very far from "much higher damage", even in a "stars-align" scenario, which is already is.

PoE is desighned so 99% of the time you faceroll everything without taking damage at all, and 1% (or 0.1% for better builds, or 0.01% for even better builds, etc) of the time "stars alighn" and you suffer insane burst damage that kills you so fast that you cant react. The tankiness of buiuld is determined by how often that "stars alighn" happens.