Pros and cons of a casual POE

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phrazz a écrit :

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Charan a écrit :

My hopes for a good, balanced game with a proper difficulty curve and rewarding solo play lie with PoE2.

Until then, I'll keep playing this game... but ultimately I support GGG, not PoE.

There are a lot of small tweaks GGG can do, to make the game more casual-friendly than it is now. Tweaks that would not hurt the hard core gamers (except their e-penis) and their play style. When GGG refuses to even TRY (or come close to try) out some of these tweaks, it tells me that GGG does not want a casual game - at all.

Maybe it's true what they tell us: They're making the game THEY want to play. And they clearly don't want to play a game where a casual player can enjoy all the things a hard core gamer can. Why would a PoE2 be any different?

Oh, there are some. But I believe that even these changes would 'damage' the game's hardcore reputation in a way that would rub so-called hardcore gamers the wrong way. This is not a conflict that can be resolved, only placated.

And no, GGG don't want a casual game. I never said they did. In fact, I stated the opposite, then elaborated that I feel they erred in taking their sentiments too far.

Are they making the game they want to play? Probably. But that doesn't mean they see the game in the same way as the top-tier players, or disgusting casuals such as myself. Can I see Chris sitting on poe.xyz or in trade chat for hours trying to acquire gear? No. Can I see Chris with 30+ characters between levels 2-50, many of them ideas waiting to be explored? No.

I can see him racing. I can see him playing the core game, and maybe some maps. Definitely can't see him ever hitting 100. Keep in mind it was he who said, back in Closed Beta, that it would take players 'years' to hit 100. I wanted to believe it then, but the whole time I was thinking 'you are such a wonderful person, Chris, if you think so highly of your players in that way'...and of course he was wrong.

As for the sequel, I'm sorry. I really shouldn't have said that without qualifying: I believe it will have a price-tag. And that will change everything.

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Charan a écrit :

And no, GGG don't want a casual game.

Then why did they ruin this season with this signature race? Almost every good racer hates it.

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jstq a écrit :

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Charan a écrit :

And no, GGG don't want a casual game.

Then why did they ruin this season with this signature race? Almost every good racer hates it.

No fucking idea. But I believe that's a tangent best left for another thread.

I'm not sure "casual" has to equate to "easier". I can imagine a whole lot of casual players having an enormous amount of fun if PoE were actually more difficult, i.e. more taxing when it comes to reaction times, or knowing your enemies strengths and weaknesses, applying proper tactics, positioning, movement, etc.

What I can not imagine is for casuals to enjoy the grinding and the dependency on trading.
This seems to be the true hardcore aspect of PoE. You don't have to be a good gamer, you don't have to be talented to succeed in PoE. All you need is time and dedication.

So I'm all for a more casual PoE, as in easier to get 5Ls and 6Ls, good gear, certain uniques, etc., but at the same time I would want it to become seriously more taxing: Rogue exiles, rare and unique monsters that provide a serious challenge; and the base difficulty of maps much greater than now - with high-end gear and a good build, and being a good player, absolutely compulsory for high-end maps.

I'm sure if it were like that, PoE would be much more attractive to casuals without losing any attractiveness at all to hardcore players.

Fair point, Jojas. When I say easier, I really mean 'a more logical difficulty curve' instead of the ridiculous spike-->drop-->spike-->drop we currently have between difficulties.

Maps should be hard. Really fucking hard. They're meant to be where those people who scoff at the 'real' game are tested to the maximum. Instead we have people 'pausing' the real game once they hit merciless Solaris, because Merc act3x is harder than early maps. And some never go back, except to off Piety for 2 passive points I suppose.

Closer to my neck of the woods, normal Sceptre of God is level 35; Upper is 36. Cruel Twilight Strand is 35. I've heard enough times that cruel act 1 is meant to be a reprieve from beating Normal, a 'reward'. But that's just lazy balancing. Who would you rather kill: Piety or Dominus? Let's see. One gives two passive points, the other is a mandatory roadblock where the reward is simply 'passing' into ten+ levels of almost embarrassingly easy content.

Now WHICH is easier to kill?

So we have a basic disparity right there: one is easier to kill and very rewarding, the other is a total dickbag and utterly unrewarding. That's problematic.

Regarding Dominus vs Piety: I hope one day GGG gives Dominus the 2 skill points reward, and Piety something else - or maybe 1 skill point to each. I really think this MUST happen. Regarding the "dramatic composition" it is no good at all to give the rather easy penultimate boss an enormous reward and the much more difficult endboss no reward at all except RNG.

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Charan a écrit :

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Swagtrain a écrit :

I know people with jobs, and kids, that have great gear and are doing maps in invasion league

crybabies are taking over the forums, normal for any game though

people that are awesome at the game will thrive and be able to do high level maps and gain fat gearz regardless if they play 2 hours per day or 12 hours a day. Bad players will go on the forums and whine about how unfair everything is instead of putting any effort into learning the game.

And you wonder why people with 2+ year old accounts that can't even make it to lvl 90 on standard league are the ones complaining? I bet they know everything about the game and are just so knowledgeable. These are clearly really great players just HELD DOWN by the time constraints they have!

This is the worst post I've ever seen you make, and I've held you in quite high regard until now. This was beneath you.

His post might be rude, but he's right.

The players he calls crybabies are destroying all the hard and entertaining games that some old "masochist hardcore l33t e-penis" players want to play. This is not restricted to PoE or ARPGs only. FpS for example falls in this category too.

Everyone of us was a bad player at beginning. Some of us didn't learn from mistakes and kept playing the game while constantly whining about diffcult spikes and mechanics (90%); other players learnt to adapt and "succeded" the game, by playing 2 or 15 hours a day (10%)

It's not a secret that nowdays the average players wants an instantly satisfying gaming experience (see: make a casual 1000X drop league); this feeling is widely confirmed by games like WoW and Diablo3: take a look at their vanilla version and actual one, you can see an ABYSS of difference. This is sadly as Swagtrain said the road that all games with a minimum of community will take in order to survive.

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Jojas a écrit :

I'm not sure "casual" has to equate to "easier"

Very good point. Though with better gear, the harder enemies are also more casual to beat...

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Charan a écrit :

even these changes would 'damage' the game's hardcore reputation in a way that would rub so-called hardcore gamers the wrong way

Yes, but how many % are they? I.e., would the loss of this crowd weigh up the gain in casuals, in terms of company revenue? I doubt it, some people are born whiners and just need to be ignored because you will anyway not satisfy them.

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Mahesys a écrit :

...crybabies are destroying all the hard and entertaining games that some old "masochist hardcore l33t e-penis" players want to play...

Must cPOE and POE be mutually exclusive? It's possible, but not definite. So let's assume that both exists and no one wants to take away the current POE. I would probably play both, would like to hear other opinions on that.

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jstq a écrit :

Pls make void hardcore league for us casuals with 1000x times currency drops to have fun crafting their own gear!

Cute suggestion, but really only an add-on so people can learn / have fun crafting. Not a different game at all...