PoE is punishing, not difficult. Video to clarify the difference.

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raics a écrit :

Sorry, but no.

As I already said, that logic goes for us, we know what are we doing most of the time. A relative novice wouldn't notice a disco ball on the driver seat of the truck that just hit him, let alone licence plates.

And it's impossible to test right now. We can deduct that spirits do some fire and some physical, but we have absolutely no way of knowing if it's 50/50, 20/80, 60/40 or whatnot. Also, we can't test it for conversion, if chernobog's pillar converted 50% it would have been possible.

Those kinds of things are important. I mentioned a player that had an idea to use snakebite gloves and poison arrow. That's a busted build and wasted time because of lack of info, it's not min-maxing, he had an idea and based a build on something that looks like it should be working but gives no hint that it doesn't.

I know there's the obvious "you've been playing for over a year ofc this stuff comes easy" but my roommate started playing a few months ago so I got to experience the questions of a new player. I'm a coach, a good one, so I'm good at teaching people shit that's virtually impossible to figure out on your own and most is counterintuitive. He likes to just get answers and I force him to figure things out for himself. He'll ask something, I'll point to a direction that would have taken him a little time to do on his own but I don't doubt he would run into it.

With SRS specifically, I'm 90% sure it's 100% fire damage. It's fairly easy to test, when facing a fire res mob the clear speed feels much slower than about a 40% DR (what it would be if it's 50/50). Also there are no skills (remember skills, not uniques or hatred) that are less or more than a 50% conversion. This is very simple to test and figure out just playing through. If you need further proof throw in added melee. A 40% more multiplier will be significant. If that's not good enough, do exactly what I did when figuring this out for myself in alpha, use hatred. If it doesn't chill monsters it's clearly not doing cold damage, SRS doesn't, so it isn't.

I just showed multiple ways to get the answers you're looking for. Like I said, you're looking for min-maxing, which requires research. If you're use to researching to min-max your first instinct is to look for the information. This isn't the process of someone just learning about a new skill naturally, this is something the game has trained to you to when more information is required. The problem (not even really a problem) is later on us min-maxers rather know all the information before we start rather than just jumping in blind. I've had these experiences many times testing out new skills in alpha.

I'm telling you, if you started a fresh account, ignored all the information you already know, and went through normal trying to figure out how things work, 80-90% would be clear as day. One or two interactions would give you enough information to know how to deal with them in most situations.

The curve balls come in maps and how map mods interact with certain mob skills. Especially when you get use to just steamrolling maps, not paying attention to what affixes are on the map then just get slammed. That's not a problem for new players, it's a problem for people who think they know everything already.

I can argue this point forever man. Keep throwing mechanics at me and I can explain exactly how my roommate or I tackled them when we knew nothing. My roommate is a pretty oblivious, "I don't give a shit, I'm lazy" player too. I saw him using his 3 original pots in cruel, and he has a lvl 87 toon at this point, that type of lazy.

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Moosifer a écrit :

With SRS specifically, I'm 90% sure it's 100% fire damage. It's fairly easy to test, when facing a fire res mob the clear speed feels much slower than about a 40% DR (what it would be if it's 50/50). Also there are no skills (remember skills, not uniques or hatred) that are less or more than a 50% conversion. This is very simple to test and figure out just playing through. If you need further proof throw in added melee. A 40% more multiplier will be significant. If that's not good enough, do exactly what I did when figuring this out for myself in alpha, use hatred. If it doesn't chill monsters it's clearly not doing cold damage, SRS doesn't, so it isn't.

Well, you're 90% wrong, hatred adds cold to them so they most definitely don't do all fire, besides, it sounds wrong... which might mean crap since hit sounds sometimes are wrong. Melee physical is hard to test by observation as using spirits is really chaotic and it would say nothing about damage conversion. There aren't skills but there are certain attacks like vaal smash which aren't 50-50, and that's also important bit of info we got from devs, how else would you know if stacking armor or using a ruby flask will help you more. Good luck testing it by taking 50 smashes and comparing damage taken.

It's nice to be all mystical and kung-fooey but would it really kill them to give us info that's impossible to test? I agree we can and should arrive to many conclusions ourselves, but sometimes we can't be 100% sure with the tools given to us.

Yes, you can talk about a coached player taking the game on with ease 'till day after tomorrow, it doesn't really help the case. 90% of my friendlist in CB were people from general chat looking for info and I'm probably spending way more time on general help section than is possibly healthy. I know people have problems, I know which ones are most common and I've given plenty of feedback on the subject. It's sad to see not a lot of things get done about it. Don't get me wrong, devs do fix and improve a lot of things but not many of them are connected to general accessibility and simple lifehacks which would do much for more enjoyable gameplay experience. Sometimes I wish they wouldn't bother at all, like with that 'spell' - 'cast' label issue.

After waching this video, i can say i had this "AHA" moment, but when ive combined spark with fork it was nerfed to oblivion ... yea pretty much anything about this game.

raics - You still don't get it. It's the 80/20 principle. You get 80% of the information you need from 20% of your play time. The other 20% is the beyond, the min-maxing.

Vaal's smash for example. A new player sees this happens, gets hits, dies. Their first reaction isn't "what's that damage so I can get defenses to tank it" it's "well shit, I better avoid that at all cost." Which is what most of us do even after we know it's 50/50.

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raics a écrit :

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Moosifer a écrit :

With SRS specifically, I'm 90% sure it's 100% fire damage. It's fairly easy to test, when facing a fire res mob the clear speed feels much slower than about a 40% DR (what it would be if it's 50/50). Also there are no skills (remember skills, not uniques or hatred) that are less or more than a 50% conversion. This is very simple to test and figure out just playing through. If you need further proof throw in added melee. A 40% more multiplier will be significant. If that's not good enough, do exactly what I did when figuring this out for myself in alpha, use hatred. If it doesn't chill monsters it's clearly not doing cold damage, SRS doesn't, so it isn't.

Well, you're 90% wrong, hatred adds cold to them so they most definitely don't do all fire, besides, it sounds wrong... which might mean crap since hit sounds sometimes are wrong. Melee physical is hard to test by observation as using spirits is really chaotic and it would say nothing about damage conversion. There aren't skills but there are certain attacks like vaal smash which aren't 50-50, and that's also important bit of info we got from devs, how else would you know if stacking armor or using a ruby flask will help you more. Good luck testing it by taking 50 smashes and comparing damage taken.

It's nice to be all mystical and kung-fooey but would it really kill them to give us info that's impossible to test? I agree we can and should arrive to many conclusions ourselves, but sometimes we can't be 100% sure with the tools given to us.

Yes, you can talk about a coached player taking the game on with ease 'till day after tomorrow, it doesn't really help the case. 90% of my friendlist in CB were people from general chat looking for info and I'm probably spending way more time on general help section than is possibly healthy. I know people have problems, I know which ones are most common and I've given plenty of feedback on the subject. It's sad to see not a lot of things get done about it. Don't get me wrong, devs do fix and improve a lot of things but not many of them are connected to general accessibility and simple lifehacks which would do much for more enjoyable gameplay experience. Sometimes I wish they wouldn't bother at all, like with that 'spell' - 'cast' label issue.

Testing vs reflect showed its 100% fire damage.

But it seems like it does phys, bases calculations off phys, then converts 100% to fire, and deals the damage as fire.

Thus melee phys gem works,

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Moosifer a écrit :

raics - You still don't get it. It's the 80/20 principle. You get 80% of the information you need from 20% of your play time. The other 20% is the beyond, the min-maxing.

Vaal's smash for example. A new player sees this happens, gets hits, dies. Their first reaction isn't "what's that damage so I can get defenses to tank it" it's "well shit, I better avoid that at all cost." Which is what most of us do even after we know it's 50/50.

Only it's more like 95/5 principle, and 5% is on play side. Honestly, man, how much of the things you know about the game have you learned from actually playing it? How would you know Kole just blows through your armor like a tin can? Maybe he just hits real hard and larvae hit real weak?

If you go about it like that, we don't need any info at all about the game. Don't get hit much, slap as good a weapon on yourself as you can, max your resists, get as much life and life leech as you can and just kill stuff... It's just that about 50% of that life leech will be wasted because the game doesn't even give you a hint there's a rate cap in place and you're wasting your hard-earned cash buying leech gear. You know how many players would notice they're leeching the same amount with 5% and 10% leech? Probably none.

And the guy farmed a lot to buy all that leech gear, probably gave up on wearing some better pieces to stack a stat that's useless to stack unless GR/VP. He wasted time, he wasted wealth... and maybe... *GASP*.... he decided to use claws instead of daggers? :)

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raics a écrit :

Only it's more like 95/5 principle, and 5% is on play side. Honestly, man, how much of the things you know about the game have you learned from actually playing it? How would you know Kole just blows through your armor like a tin can? Maybe he just hits real hard and larvae hit real weak?

If you go about it like that, we don't need any info at all about the game. Don't get hit much, slap as good a weapon on yourself as you can, max your resists, get as much life and life leech as you can and just kill stuff... It's just that about 50% of that life leech will be wasted because the game doesn't even give you a hint there's a rate cap in place and you're wasting your hard-earned cash buying leech gear. You know how many players would notice they're leeching the same amount with 5% and 10% leech? Probably none.

And the guy farmed a lot to buy all that leech gear, probably gave up on wearing some better pieces to stack a stat that's useless to stack unless GR/VP. He wasted time, he wasted wealth... and maybe... *GASP*.... he decided to use claws instead of daggers? :)

Again, you're fixated on min-maxing.

Kole - He hit hard, avoid. When you figure out he blows through armor what difference does it really make? Oh, I need 36k armor so I take 1.5k damage instead of 3k, the lesson learned on first impression still stands, don't get hit by it.

Leech - Even with the rate cap there's a balance between damage and leech %. It really only starts to be evident when you have very high damage or very high leech, again, min maxing.

I can literally do this all month if you want to continue. Most of the game is transparent but it does require research when delving into the harder portions and when min-maxing is involved. You cannot honestly tell me that someone can make it through cruel and not have a clue what the fuck they were doing and how the majority of their skills and gear work.

The word "farming" can't even apply to this situation because to get to the point someone is farming they have to understand the skills they are using, the area they are attempting to farm, the mobs within it, the gear they are using and what they are looking for.

You're missing the forest while obsessing about the trees.

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Moosifer a écrit :

The word "farming" can't even apply to this situation because to get to the point someone is farming they have to understand the skills they are using, the area they are attempting to farm, the mobs within it, the gear they are using and what they are looking for.

You'd be surprised :/

So, basically, you're saying you don't need any knowledge deeper than 'if i hit something it will die' in order to enjoy this game? That you can make a working build that can tackle most of the game content without knowing virtually nothing about game mechanics? That the game has absolutely no problem in communicating with a player and that it offers, in this way or the other, all the information and tools needed for comprehensive play?

Sorry, sell it all you want but I don't buy it.

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raics a écrit :

You'd be surprised :/

So, basically, you're saying you don't need any knowledge deeper than 'if i hit something it will die' in order to enjoy this game? That you can make a working build that can tackle most of the game content without knowing virtually nothing about game mechanics? That the game has absolutely no problem in communicating with a player and that it offers, in this way or the other, all the information and tools needed for comprehensive play?

Sorry, sell it all you want but I don't buy it.

You don't buy it because you're obsessed with being right rather than looking at the whole picture.

Seems you've given up on saying players need all information now you're saying that I don't think they need any.

Stop keeping it in extremes.

You keep bringing up bosses so I keep explaining first impressions against bosses. I already explained constructs a while back and how easy it is to pick up on their pattern.

My point is the majority of mechanics you need to know about the game are up front and learned generally by the completion of cruel. You had the first blind run through on normal, besides bosses (besides kole) you've probably seen every mob type at least a few times. You know which ones hurt and which are easy. On your pass through cruel some of those easy ones get harder because of the res penalty, but because they were easy before you start checking your stats to see wtf is going on. The hard ones force you to figure out a strategy. Do you avoid them completely, if you can't what then? Break their pack up? Kite? Use a different skill like traps, mine or totem?

All things that are just figured out while playing. Again, from your perception as someone who has been playing for a while and wants to know everything before jumping in, yes, it seems like without the forums and wiki you wouldn't know anything about the game. But realistically most of your actual game playing you know how to adjust to certain packs with certain mobs and there was no research at all. You didn't need to come to the forums for someone to tell you Vaal's slam will one shot you, that's something you experienced, you came for more details about it.

Call bullshit, but exactly why you said we understand things easier is the exact reason why you can't see how this stuff is figured out from fresh eyes.

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raics a écrit :

So, basically, you're saying you don't need any knowledge deeper than 'if i hit something it will die' in order to enjoy this game? That you can make a working build that can tackle most of the game content without knowing virtually nothing about game mechanics? That the game has absolutely no problem in communicating with a player and that it offers, in this way or the other, all the information and tools needed for comprehensive play?

Sorry, sell it all you want but I don't buy it.

Believe it or not, he's right.

I really don't give a shit about specific mechanics and calculations, and because of this I'd say a good 90% of what I know about the game came directly from lessons learned and information gathered during gameplay. Despite this I've figured out enough to bring myself to endgame content, through builds that are 100% my own unique creations, and I'm still rolling along just fine.

It's exactly like what was being said: You don't need to know the mechanics behind what happens in the game to be successful so much as "If X happens, then Y is the result, and I can cause/avoid this by taking action Z." Cause and effect. THAT is what you really need to know, and that information is readily available with in-game experience.

Everything else is just fluff.